If entropy is a measure of disorder, how come mixing water and oil finishes in a well ordered, separate state? [duplicate]

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  • Homemade salad dressing separates into layers after it sits for a while. Why doesn't this violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

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By the second law of thermodynamics, entropy tends to increase when the system is let on itself. And if entropy is a measure of disorder, how come mixing oil in water and letting the system reach equilibrium, ends up with the oil and water well separated? I see no disorder whatsoever, while in reality the entropy increased compared to the initial state (oil and water seemingly well mixed by e.g. shaking the container).







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marked as duplicate by AccidentalFourierTransform, Community♦ 2 hours ago


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    up vote
    14
    down vote

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    2













    This question already has an answer here:



    • Homemade salad dressing separates into layers after it sits for a while. Why doesn't this violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

      7 answers



    By the second law of thermodynamics, entropy tends to increase when the system is let on itself. And if entropy is a measure of disorder, how come mixing oil in water and letting the system reach equilibrium, ends up with the oil and water well separated? I see no disorder whatsoever, while in reality the entropy increased compared to the initial state (oil and water seemingly well mixed by e.g. shaking the container).







    share|cite|improve this question











    marked as duplicate by AccidentalFourierTransform, Community♦ 2 hours ago


    This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.
















      up vote
      14
      down vote

      favorite
      2









      up vote
      14
      down vote

      favorite
      2






      2






      This question already has an answer here:



      • Homemade salad dressing separates into layers after it sits for a while. Why doesn't this violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

        7 answers



      By the second law of thermodynamics, entropy tends to increase when the system is let on itself. And if entropy is a measure of disorder, how come mixing oil in water and letting the system reach equilibrium, ends up with the oil and water well separated? I see no disorder whatsoever, while in reality the entropy increased compared to the initial state (oil and water seemingly well mixed by e.g. shaking the container).







      share|cite|improve this question












      This question already has an answer here:



      • Homemade salad dressing separates into layers after it sits for a while. Why doesn't this violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

        7 answers



      By the second law of thermodynamics, entropy tends to increase when the system is let on itself. And if entropy is a measure of disorder, how come mixing oil in water and letting the system reach equilibrium, ends up with the oil and water well separated? I see no disorder whatsoever, while in reality the entropy increased compared to the initial state (oil and water seemingly well mixed by e.g. shaking the container).





      This question already has an answer here:



      • Homemade salad dressing separates into layers after it sits for a while. Why doesn't this violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

        7 answers









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      asked 8 hours ago









      user75916

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      marked as duplicate by AccidentalFourierTransform, Community♦ 2 hours ago


      This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.






      marked as duplicate by AccidentalFourierTransform, Community♦ 2 hours ago


      This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.






















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes

















          up vote
          20
          down vote













          This is because entropy has almost nothing to do with the apparent order or disorder you can see with your naked eye. That's just a pop science simplification.



          Compare the entropy of a dictionary and an identically sized book full of random gibberish. You might think the latter has a higher entropy, because the content is disordered. But the entropy of the words in the book is not even a million millionth of the total entropy, which overwhelmingly comes from thermal motion of the molecules in the paper. (Compare the number of characters in the book to the number of molecules, on the order of $10^23$.) If you hold the dictionary for even a second, the heat from your hand will make the entropy of the dictionary higher.



          In the case of oil and water, it is energetically favorable for the oil to be separate from the water, because these molecules bind more strongly to themselves than to each other. The extra energy released is now available to thermal motion of the oil and water molecules, or to the surrounding air molecules, increasing the entropy of the universe. This overwhelms the decrease of entropy associated with clumping the oil together.






          share|cite|improve this answer



















          • 1




            So you are saying that the final state has less entropy than the mixed state? If this is so, then entropy had to increase somewhere else. Where is this entropy increase? This is what the OP is asking about. I am not saying you're wrong, I just think this should be explicitly stated since this is the heart of the question.
            – Aaron Stevens
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            Nice answer. Note that it's mostly irrelevant that the oil and the water have different densities ("energetically favorable for the oil to be on top"), because water will happily dissolve low-density ethanol or high-density table salt. The energetic favorability comes from the water-water interactions and/or oil-oil interactions being stronger than water-oil interactions. When the mixture is stirred, energy is released when the water molecules find each other.
            – rob♦
            7 hours ago






          • 2




            @AaronStevens The entropy of the universe increases when the water and oil un-mix, because the energy released by the un-mixing has many many ways to interact with the environment.
            – rob♦
            7 hours ago






          • 1




            Can't you also say there is more entropy in the un-mixed case because the polar water molecules have more configurations to make hydrogen bonds with their neighbors? Your new addition makes it seem like when oil and water separate the entire system heats up, and I am not sure this is the case.
            – Aaron Stevens
            5 hours ago







          • 1




            The words in the dictionary have entropy in the Information Theory sense of the word. The motion of the molecules have entropy in the Physics sense of the word. While these two meanings are intimately connected, they shouldn't be confused.
            – Walter Mitty
            2 hours ago

















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes








          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes








          up vote
          20
          down vote













          This is because entropy has almost nothing to do with the apparent order or disorder you can see with your naked eye. That's just a pop science simplification.



          Compare the entropy of a dictionary and an identically sized book full of random gibberish. You might think the latter has a higher entropy, because the content is disordered. But the entropy of the words in the book is not even a million millionth of the total entropy, which overwhelmingly comes from thermal motion of the molecules in the paper. (Compare the number of characters in the book to the number of molecules, on the order of $10^23$.) If you hold the dictionary for even a second, the heat from your hand will make the entropy of the dictionary higher.



          In the case of oil and water, it is energetically favorable for the oil to be separate from the water, because these molecules bind more strongly to themselves than to each other. The extra energy released is now available to thermal motion of the oil and water molecules, or to the surrounding air molecules, increasing the entropy of the universe. This overwhelms the decrease of entropy associated with clumping the oil together.






          share|cite|improve this answer



















          • 1




            So you are saying that the final state has less entropy than the mixed state? If this is so, then entropy had to increase somewhere else. Where is this entropy increase? This is what the OP is asking about. I am not saying you're wrong, I just think this should be explicitly stated since this is the heart of the question.
            – Aaron Stevens
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            Nice answer. Note that it's mostly irrelevant that the oil and the water have different densities ("energetically favorable for the oil to be on top"), because water will happily dissolve low-density ethanol or high-density table salt. The energetic favorability comes from the water-water interactions and/or oil-oil interactions being stronger than water-oil interactions. When the mixture is stirred, energy is released when the water molecules find each other.
            – rob♦
            7 hours ago






          • 2




            @AaronStevens The entropy of the universe increases when the water and oil un-mix, because the energy released by the un-mixing has many many ways to interact with the environment.
            – rob♦
            7 hours ago






          • 1




            Can't you also say there is more entropy in the un-mixed case because the polar water molecules have more configurations to make hydrogen bonds with their neighbors? Your new addition makes it seem like when oil and water separate the entire system heats up, and I am not sure this is the case.
            – Aaron Stevens
            5 hours ago







          • 1




            The words in the dictionary have entropy in the Information Theory sense of the word. The motion of the molecules have entropy in the Physics sense of the word. While these two meanings are intimately connected, they shouldn't be confused.
            – Walter Mitty
            2 hours ago














          up vote
          20
          down vote













          This is because entropy has almost nothing to do with the apparent order or disorder you can see with your naked eye. That's just a pop science simplification.



          Compare the entropy of a dictionary and an identically sized book full of random gibberish. You might think the latter has a higher entropy, because the content is disordered. But the entropy of the words in the book is not even a million millionth of the total entropy, which overwhelmingly comes from thermal motion of the molecules in the paper. (Compare the number of characters in the book to the number of molecules, on the order of $10^23$.) If you hold the dictionary for even a second, the heat from your hand will make the entropy of the dictionary higher.



          In the case of oil and water, it is energetically favorable for the oil to be separate from the water, because these molecules bind more strongly to themselves than to each other. The extra energy released is now available to thermal motion of the oil and water molecules, or to the surrounding air molecules, increasing the entropy of the universe. This overwhelms the decrease of entropy associated with clumping the oil together.






          share|cite|improve this answer



















          • 1




            So you are saying that the final state has less entropy than the mixed state? If this is so, then entropy had to increase somewhere else. Where is this entropy increase? This is what the OP is asking about. I am not saying you're wrong, I just think this should be explicitly stated since this is the heart of the question.
            – Aaron Stevens
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            Nice answer. Note that it's mostly irrelevant that the oil and the water have different densities ("energetically favorable for the oil to be on top"), because water will happily dissolve low-density ethanol or high-density table salt. The energetic favorability comes from the water-water interactions and/or oil-oil interactions being stronger than water-oil interactions. When the mixture is stirred, energy is released when the water molecules find each other.
            – rob♦
            7 hours ago






          • 2




            @AaronStevens The entropy of the universe increases when the water and oil un-mix, because the energy released by the un-mixing has many many ways to interact with the environment.
            – rob♦
            7 hours ago






          • 1




            Can't you also say there is more entropy in the un-mixed case because the polar water molecules have more configurations to make hydrogen bonds with their neighbors? Your new addition makes it seem like when oil and water separate the entire system heats up, and I am not sure this is the case.
            – Aaron Stevens
            5 hours ago







          • 1




            The words in the dictionary have entropy in the Information Theory sense of the word. The motion of the molecules have entropy in the Physics sense of the word. While these two meanings are intimately connected, they shouldn't be confused.
            – Walter Mitty
            2 hours ago












          up vote
          20
          down vote










          up vote
          20
          down vote









          This is because entropy has almost nothing to do with the apparent order or disorder you can see with your naked eye. That's just a pop science simplification.



          Compare the entropy of a dictionary and an identically sized book full of random gibberish. You might think the latter has a higher entropy, because the content is disordered. But the entropy of the words in the book is not even a million millionth of the total entropy, which overwhelmingly comes from thermal motion of the molecules in the paper. (Compare the number of characters in the book to the number of molecules, on the order of $10^23$.) If you hold the dictionary for even a second, the heat from your hand will make the entropy of the dictionary higher.



          In the case of oil and water, it is energetically favorable for the oil to be separate from the water, because these molecules bind more strongly to themselves than to each other. The extra energy released is now available to thermal motion of the oil and water molecules, or to the surrounding air molecules, increasing the entropy of the universe. This overwhelms the decrease of entropy associated with clumping the oil together.






          share|cite|improve this answer















          This is because entropy has almost nothing to do with the apparent order or disorder you can see with your naked eye. That's just a pop science simplification.



          Compare the entropy of a dictionary and an identically sized book full of random gibberish. You might think the latter has a higher entropy, because the content is disordered. But the entropy of the words in the book is not even a million millionth of the total entropy, which overwhelmingly comes from thermal motion of the molecules in the paper. (Compare the number of characters in the book to the number of molecules, on the order of $10^23$.) If you hold the dictionary for even a second, the heat from your hand will make the entropy of the dictionary higher.



          In the case of oil and water, it is energetically favorable for the oil to be separate from the water, because these molecules bind more strongly to themselves than to each other. The extra energy released is now available to thermal motion of the oil and water molecules, or to the surrounding air molecules, increasing the entropy of the universe. This overwhelms the decrease of entropy associated with clumping the oil together.







          share|cite|improve this answer















          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited 6 hours ago


























          answered 7 hours ago









          knzhou

          30.7k785155




          30.7k785155







          • 1




            So you are saying that the final state has less entropy than the mixed state? If this is so, then entropy had to increase somewhere else. Where is this entropy increase? This is what the OP is asking about. I am not saying you're wrong, I just think this should be explicitly stated since this is the heart of the question.
            – Aaron Stevens
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            Nice answer. Note that it's mostly irrelevant that the oil and the water have different densities ("energetically favorable for the oil to be on top"), because water will happily dissolve low-density ethanol or high-density table salt. The energetic favorability comes from the water-water interactions and/or oil-oil interactions being stronger than water-oil interactions. When the mixture is stirred, energy is released when the water molecules find each other.
            – rob♦
            7 hours ago






          • 2




            @AaronStevens The entropy of the universe increases when the water and oil un-mix, because the energy released by the un-mixing has many many ways to interact with the environment.
            – rob♦
            7 hours ago






          • 1




            Can't you also say there is more entropy in the un-mixed case because the polar water molecules have more configurations to make hydrogen bonds with their neighbors? Your new addition makes it seem like when oil and water separate the entire system heats up, and I am not sure this is the case.
            – Aaron Stevens
            5 hours ago







          • 1




            The words in the dictionary have entropy in the Information Theory sense of the word. The motion of the molecules have entropy in the Physics sense of the word. While these two meanings are intimately connected, they shouldn't be confused.
            – Walter Mitty
            2 hours ago












          • 1




            So you are saying that the final state has less entropy than the mixed state? If this is so, then entropy had to increase somewhere else. Where is this entropy increase? This is what the OP is asking about. I am not saying you're wrong, I just think this should be explicitly stated since this is the heart of the question.
            – Aaron Stevens
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            Nice answer. Note that it's mostly irrelevant that the oil and the water have different densities ("energetically favorable for the oil to be on top"), because water will happily dissolve low-density ethanol or high-density table salt. The energetic favorability comes from the water-water interactions and/or oil-oil interactions being stronger than water-oil interactions. When the mixture is stirred, energy is released when the water molecules find each other.
            – rob♦
            7 hours ago






          • 2




            @AaronStevens The entropy of the universe increases when the water and oil un-mix, because the energy released by the un-mixing has many many ways to interact with the environment.
            – rob♦
            7 hours ago






          • 1




            Can't you also say there is more entropy in the un-mixed case because the polar water molecules have more configurations to make hydrogen bonds with their neighbors? Your new addition makes it seem like when oil and water separate the entire system heats up, and I am not sure this is the case.
            – Aaron Stevens
            5 hours ago







          • 1




            The words in the dictionary have entropy in the Information Theory sense of the word. The motion of the molecules have entropy in the Physics sense of the word. While these two meanings are intimately connected, they shouldn't be confused.
            – Walter Mitty
            2 hours ago







          1




          1




          So you are saying that the final state has less entropy than the mixed state? If this is so, then entropy had to increase somewhere else. Where is this entropy increase? This is what the OP is asking about. I am not saying you're wrong, I just think this should be explicitly stated since this is the heart of the question.
          – Aaron Stevens
          7 hours ago





          So you are saying that the final state has less entropy than the mixed state? If this is so, then entropy had to increase somewhere else. Where is this entropy increase? This is what the OP is asking about. I am not saying you're wrong, I just think this should be explicitly stated since this is the heart of the question.
          – Aaron Stevens
          7 hours ago





          1




          1




          Nice answer. Note that it's mostly irrelevant that the oil and the water have different densities ("energetically favorable for the oil to be on top"), because water will happily dissolve low-density ethanol or high-density table salt. The energetic favorability comes from the water-water interactions and/or oil-oil interactions being stronger than water-oil interactions. When the mixture is stirred, energy is released when the water molecules find each other.
          – rob♦
          7 hours ago




          Nice answer. Note that it's mostly irrelevant that the oil and the water have different densities ("energetically favorable for the oil to be on top"), because water will happily dissolve low-density ethanol or high-density table salt. The energetic favorability comes from the water-water interactions and/or oil-oil interactions being stronger than water-oil interactions. When the mixture is stirred, energy is released when the water molecules find each other.
          – rob♦
          7 hours ago




          2




          2




          @AaronStevens The entropy of the universe increases when the water and oil un-mix, because the energy released by the un-mixing has many many ways to interact with the environment.
          – rob♦
          7 hours ago




          @AaronStevens The entropy of the universe increases when the water and oil un-mix, because the energy released by the un-mixing has many many ways to interact with the environment.
          – rob♦
          7 hours ago




          1




          1




          Can't you also say there is more entropy in the un-mixed case because the polar water molecules have more configurations to make hydrogen bonds with their neighbors? Your new addition makes it seem like when oil and water separate the entire system heats up, and I am not sure this is the case.
          – Aaron Stevens
          5 hours ago





          Can't you also say there is more entropy in the un-mixed case because the polar water molecules have more configurations to make hydrogen bonds with their neighbors? Your new addition makes it seem like when oil and water separate the entire system heats up, and I am not sure this is the case.
          – Aaron Stevens
          5 hours ago





          1




          1




          The words in the dictionary have entropy in the Information Theory sense of the word. The motion of the molecules have entropy in the Physics sense of the word. While these two meanings are intimately connected, they shouldn't be confused.
          – Walter Mitty
          2 hours ago




          The words in the dictionary have entropy in the Information Theory sense of the word. The motion of the molecules have entropy in the Physics sense of the word. While these two meanings are intimately connected, they shouldn't be confused.
          – Walter Mitty
          2 hours ago


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