Buddha's night before enlightenment

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According to the historical story before the day of enlightenment, Mara apparently lured the Buddha with various worldy pleasures. Now, I am not arguing whether Mara really existed or is just Buddha's mind (which would be rather my interpretation). But The Buddha should at that time be a non-returner and he must have abandoned the fetter of sensuous desires. He should've chilled in the 4th Jhana not giving a damn!



So my question is: Why was it a struggle for the Buddha if the conditioned fetter of sensuous desire was already uprooted as an anagami?







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  • See also Where is the description of the vow and the Bodhi tree?
    – ChrisW♦
    Aug 7 at 15:10






  • 1




    "historical story"? It's a legend, but it doesn't fit the definition of "historical".
    – GreenMatt
    Aug 7 at 16:41










  • This question wouldn't arise if you acknowledge that there is an actual god called Mara. Did you read about what happened on the 5th week after the enlightenment? The daughters of Mara: Tanha, Rathi, Raga came and tried to lure the Buddha. If they were metaphorical, how can an enlightened being be troubled by them? :)
    – Sankha Kulathantille
    Aug 8 at 2:50










  • It is suspicious how there is no definitve answer. They are all diverging quite strongly. Isn't there a consensus?
    – Val
    Aug 8 at 6:23











  • The Buddha taught different things to different people according to their skill and predilection. The lack of consensus is likely because this is a point of dispute between Theravada and Mahayana.
    – Yeshe Tenley
    Aug 8 at 14:51














up vote
4
down vote

favorite












According to the historical story before the day of enlightenment, Mara apparently lured the Buddha with various worldy pleasures. Now, I am not arguing whether Mara really existed or is just Buddha's mind (which would be rather my interpretation). But The Buddha should at that time be a non-returner and he must have abandoned the fetter of sensuous desires. He should've chilled in the 4th Jhana not giving a damn!



So my question is: Why was it a struggle for the Buddha if the conditioned fetter of sensuous desire was already uprooted as an anagami?







share|improve this question





















  • See also Where is the description of the vow and the Bodhi tree?
    – ChrisW♦
    Aug 7 at 15:10






  • 1




    "historical story"? It's a legend, but it doesn't fit the definition of "historical".
    – GreenMatt
    Aug 7 at 16:41










  • This question wouldn't arise if you acknowledge that there is an actual god called Mara. Did you read about what happened on the 5th week after the enlightenment? The daughters of Mara: Tanha, Rathi, Raga came and tried to lure the Buddha. If they were metaphorical, how can an enlightened being be troubled by them? :)
    – Sankha Kulathantille
    Aug 8 at 2:50










  • It is suspicious how there is no definitve answer. They are all diverging quite strongly. Isn't there a consensus?
    – Val
    Aug 8 at 6:23











  • The Buddha taught different things to different people according to their skill and predilection. The lack of consensus is likely because this is a point of dispute between Theravada and Mahayana.
    – Yeshe Tenley
    Aug 8 at 14:51












up vote
4
down vote

favorite









up vote
4
down vote

favorite











According to the historical story before the day of enlightenment, Mara apparently lured the Buddha with various worldy pleasures. Now, I am not arguing whether Mara really existed or is just Buddha's mind (which would be rather my interpretation). But The Buddha should at that time be a non-returner and he must have abandoned the fetter of sensuous desires. He should've chilled in the 4th Jhana not giving a damn!



So my question is: Why was it a struggle for the Buddha if the conditioned fetter of sensuous desire was already uprooted as an anagami?







share|improve this question













According to the historical story before the day of enlightenment, Mara apparently lured the Buddha with various worldy pleasures. Now, I am not arguing whether Mara really existed or is just Buddha's mind (which would be rather my interpretation). But The Buddha should at that time be a non-returner and he must have abandoned the fetter of sensuous desires. He should've chilled in the 4th Jhana not giving a damn!



So my question is: Why was it a struggle for the Buddha if the conditioned fetter of sensuous desire was already uprooted as an anagami?









share|improve this question












share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Aug 7 at 14:59
























asked Aug 7 at 14:54









Val

716212




716212











  • See also Where is the description of the vow and the Bodhi tree?
    – ChrisW♦
    Aug 7 at 15:10






  • 1




    "historical story"? It's a legend, but it doesn't fit the definition of "historical".
    – GreenMatt
    Aug 7 at 16:41










  • This question wouldn't arise if you acknowledge that there is an actual god called Mara. Did you read about what happened on the 5th week after the enlightenment? The daughters of Mara: Tanha, Rathi, Raga came and tried to lure the Buddha. If they were metaphorical, how can an enlightened being be troubled by them? :)
    – Sankha Kulathantille
    Aug 8 at 2:50










  • It is suspicious how there is no definitve answer. They are all diverging quite strongly. Isn't there a consensus?
    – Val
    Aug 8 at 6:23











  • The Buddha taught different things to different people according to their skill and predilection. The lack of consensus is likely because this is a point of dispute between Theravada and Mahayana.
    – Yeshe Tenley
    Aug 8 at 14:51
















  • See also Where is the description of the vow and the Bodhi tree?
    – ChrisW♦
    Aug 7 at 15:10






  • 1




    "historical story"? It's a legend, but it doesn't fit the definition of "historical".
    – GreenMatt
    Aug 7 at 16:41










  • This question wouldn't arise if you acknowledge that there is an actual god called Mara. Did you read about what happened on the 5th week after the enlightenment? The daughters of Mara: Tanha, Rathi, Raga came and tried to lure the Buddha. If they were metaphorical, how can an enlightened being be troubled by them? :)
    – Sankha Kulathantille
    Aug 8 at 2:50










  • It is suspicious how there is no definitve answer. They are all diverging quite strongly. Isn't there a consensus?
    – Val
    Aug 8 at 6:23











  • The Buddha taught different things to different people according to their skill and predilection. The lack of consensus is likely because this is a point of dispute between Theravada and Mahayana.
    – Yeshe Tenley
    Aug 8 at 14:51















See also Where is the description of the vow and the Bodhi tree?
– ChrisW♦
Aug 7 at 15:10




See also Where is the description of the vow and the Bodhi tree?
– ChrisW♦
Aug 7 at 15:10




1




1




"historical story"? It's a legend, but it doesn't fit the definition of "historical".
– GreenMatt
Aug 7 at 16:41




"historical story"? It's a legend, but it doesn't fit the definition of "historical".
– GreenMatt
Aug 7 at 16:41












This question wouldn't arise if you acknowledge that there is an actual god called Mara. Did you read about what happened on the 5th week after the enlightenment? The daughters of Mara: Tanha, Rathi, Raga came and tried to lure the Buddha. If they were metaphorical, how can an enlightened being be troubled by them? :)
– Sankha Kulathantille
Aug 8 at 2:50




This question wouldn't arise if you acknowledge that there is an actual god called Mara. Did you read about what happened on the 5th week after the enlightenment? The daughters of Mara: Tanha, Rathi, Raga came and tried to lure the Buddha. If they were metaphorical, how can an enlightened being be troubled by them? :)
– Sankha Kulathantille
Aug 8 at 2:50












It is suspicious how there is no definitve answer. They are all diverging quite strongly. Isn't there a consensus?
– Val
Aug 8 at 6:23





It is suspicious how there is no definitve answer. They are all diverging quite strongly. Isn't there a consensus?
– Val
Aug 8 at 6:23













The Buddha taught different things to different people according to their skill and predilection. The lack of consensus is likely because this is a point of dispute between Theravada and Mahayana.
– Yeshe Tenley
Aug 8 at 14:51




The Buddha taught different things to different people according to their skill and predilection. The lack of consensus is likely because this is a point of dispute between Theravada and Mahayana.
– Yeshe Tenley
Aug 8 at 14:51










5 Answers
5






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up vote
2
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In my understanding, Buddha did not progress through the four stages of enlightenment he later prescribed for his students.



This is because, for Buddha students - you start with theoretical understanding (stream entry), and then you practice according to instructions until you achieve it (arahant-hood).



In Buddha's case, because he is Self-Awakened, he starts with intuitive practice and then achieves understanding (Bodhi).



So in Buddha's case he does not proceed gradually, phase by phase, like assembling the puzzle by looking at the complete picture. Instead, it's like solving a puzzle randomly - by the time he sat under the Bodhi Tree, he had assembled most of the pieces but still did not know what was shown on the picture.



This is why in Buddha's case he left all interpretative possibilities open until the last moment, which means he still had doubts until the very last moment. Those doubts are represented in the anthropomorphic personification known as "the Mara".



In case of Buddha's students, the interpretative framework is locked in place from the time of stream-entry, so doubts are eliminated at that phase.






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    For reference, according to this account1, it was Mara's choice to assail the Buddha -- Mara is presented as another/separate being, an agent, a divinity (and not as a metaphor for unenlightened aspects of the future Buddha's mind)2:




    At this point the god Mâra, exclaiming, "Prince Siddhattha is desirous of passing beyond my control, but I will never allow it!" went and announced the news to his army, and sounding the Mâra war-cry, drew out for battle.




    And in that "struggle" the Buddha used (not the 4th Jhana but) his recollection of (or his accomplishment of, his perfection of) the Ten Perfections, five great donations, struggle for the welfare of the world, for example:




    My mother and father are not here, nor my brother, nor any other relative. But I have these Ten Perfections, like old retainers long cherished at my board. It therefore behooves me to make the Ten Perfections my shield and my sword ...





    If you want to interpret it metaphorically, perhaps see it as his "Am I worthy?" struggle with "conceit" (which is one of the last fetters) -- e.g. because "conceit" includes "comparison", and this passage includes explicit comparison between the Buddha and Mara.



    Or see as an affirmation or explanation for us, to help explain how we should view him as worthy.




    I think the recollection of perfections may also echo some of the knowledge associated with final enlightenment:




    The Arahant SN 22.110



    And when, monks, a monk, having seen as they really are the arising and the passing away, the attractiveness and the danger, and the deliverance from the five groups of clinging, is released without clinging, he, monks, is called a monk in whom the cankers are destroyed, who has lived the life to perfection, done what had to be done, put down the burden, gained the highest goal, worn through the fetters of rebirth, and is liberated by perfect insight.



    (The whole phrase is a standard description of the Arahant found at many places in the Canon)




    Speaking of "perfections" in general, IMO the English word "perfect" has at least three related meanings, i.e., 1) very good (high quality); 2) complete (finished, past tense); 3) whole.




    1The Attainment of Buddhaship -- Translated from the Introduction to the Jâtaka -- referenced from this answer



    2There are other records of discourse between the Buddha and Mara, which happen after the Buddha's awakening -- for example even in the Maha-parinibbana Sutta:




    And when the Venerable Ananda had gone away, Mara, the Evil One, approached the Blessed One. And standing at one side he spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "Now, O Lord, let the Blessed One come to his final passing away; let the Happy One utterly pass away! The time has come for the Parinibbana of the Lord.







    share|improve this answer























    • If I understand correctly, the Theravada answer is that Mara was a real separate being that tried to tempt Buddha Shakyamuni but utterly failed as Gautama had already abandoned sensuous desires and thus no contradiction exists with OP's question?
      – Yeshe Tenley
      Aug 8 at 15:02






    • 1




      That sounds like a plausible answer to me (and "free from sensual desire" is characteristic of a "non-returner").
      – ChrisW♦
      Aug 8 at 15:06

















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    0
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    According to MN 36, the Buddha was not released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming and the fermentation of ignorance, until the very last moment of enlightenment, when he attained the third knowledge. Mara could be a personification of these three types of fermentations.




    "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished,
    rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to
    imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the
    mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that
    'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the
    cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of
    stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of
    fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the
    way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus
    knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of
    sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from
    the fermentation of ignorance.
    With release, there was the knowledge,
    'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled,
    the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'



    "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the
    night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was
    destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, &
    resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not
    invade my mind or remain.







    share|improve this answer




























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      The Buddha achieved enlightenment many, many, many lifetimes before he was ever born as Siddhartha Gautama. The story of his enlightenment was a useful and skillful retelling of how he became enlightened long, long, long before. Why did the Buddha manifest as an unenlightened young Bodhisattva named Gautama who completed the path in this very life? He did it out of compassion for all sentient beings to teach them the steps to liberation.



      This is a point of contention between the Theravada and Mahayana view of the Buddha. According to the latter he was already enlightened aeons before he ever manifested as Shakyamuni. See here for contemporary account from the Mahayana viewpoint.



      For a Mahayana sutra reference have a look at the Lotus Sutra.



      This is from a recent english translation of the Lotus Sutra. Listen to how Bodhisattva Maitreya implores Shakyamuni to explain how Shakyamuni describes enlightened deeds committed aeons ago juxtaposed with his recent enlightenment 40 years ago:




      Then Bodhisattva Mahāsattva Maitreya and the innumerable other
      bodhisattvas became doubtful and confused concerning this
      unprecedented experience. They thought this:



      How is it possible in such a short time for the Bhagavat to have
      inspired such an immeasurable, limitless, incalculable number of great
      bodhisattvas, enabling them to abide in highest, complete
      enlightenment? Immediately they addressed the Buddha, saying: “O
      Bhagavat! When the Tathāgata was a prince he left the palace of the
      Śākyas, sat on the terrace of enlightenment which is not far from the
      city of Gayā, and attained highest, complete enlightenment. Since then
      more than forty years have passed. How is it possible, O Bhagavat, for
      you to have done such great buddha acts in such a short period of
      time? Is it through the might of the Buddha and through the Buddha’s
      qualities that you have inspired such an assembly of incalculable
      great bodhisattvas to achieve highest, complete enlightenment?



      ...
      This would be difficult to believe; and what the Buddha has now taught
      is exactly like this. It has not, in fact, been so long since the
      Buddha attained the path.
      Yet for the sake of the buddha path this
      great assembly of bodhisattvas has been diligently striving for
      innumerable thousands of myriads of koá¹­is of kalpas.



      ...
      However, if the bodhisattvas in whom the thought of enlightenment has
      recently awakened hear this after the Buddha’s parinirvāṇa, they will
      not accept it; and this will bring about conditions for erring deeds
      that destroy the Dharma. That is why, O Bhagavat, we entreat you to
      explain it to us and remove our doubts.




      And this is how Buddha Shakyamuni answered:




      Thereupon the Buddha addressed the bodhisattvas and the entire great
      assembly, saying: “O sons of a virtuous family! You should believe the
      true words of the Tathāgata.” He addressed the great assembly again,
      saying: “You should believe the Tathāgata’s true words.” He repeated
      this to them, saying: “You should believe the Tathāgata’s true words.”



      Then the great assembly of bodhisattvas, headed by Maitreya, addressed
      the Buddha with their palms pressed together, saying: “O Bhagavat! We
      entreat you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.” After
      they had spoken in this way three times, they again said: “We entreat
      you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.”



      After they had spoken in this way three times, they again said: “We
      entreat you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.” Then
      the Bhagavat, realizing that the bodhisattvas continued to entreat him
      after those three times, addressed them, saying: “Listen carefully to
      the Tathāgata’s secret and transcendent powers. The devas, humans, and
      asuras in all the worlds all think that the present Buddha, Śākyamuni,
      left the palace of the Śākyas, sat on the terrace of enlightenment not
      far from the city of Gayā, and attained highest, complete
      enlightenment. However, O sons of a virtuous family, immeasurable,
      limitless, hundreds of thousands of myriads of koá¹­is of nayutas of
      kalpas have passed since I actually attained buddhahood.




      Why did Buddha Shakyamuni manifest himself as attaining enlightenment in 40 years in his own lifetime? Why does he tell some sentient beings that he will pass into paranirvana and be utterly extinguished when in fact he will not? ... skillful means:




      “O sons of a virtuous family! If any sentient being comes to me, I
      perceive the dullness or sharpness of his faith and other faculties
      with my buddhaeye. According to the way I should bring them to the
      path, I, myself, proclaim different names and lifespans in various
      places.
      In each case I have also clearly stated that I would enter
      parinirvāṇa. Through various skillful means I have explained
      subtle teachings and have made the sentient beings rejoice.



      “O sons of a virtuous family! To those beings whom the Tathāgata
      perceives as taking pleasure in the inferior teachings, who have few
      qualities and grave defilements, he teaches that the Buddha attained
      highest, complete enlightenment after he renounced household life in
      his young age. However, it has been a very long time indeed since I
      attained buddhahood.
      I give such an explanation only to lead and
      inspire the sentient beings to enter the buddha path through skillful
      means.




      Don't think for even a moment that the Buddha has spoken falsely. Everything he does is out of compassion for sentient beings. If your house was on fire and your kids refusing to budge you would use skillful means to lure them out of compassion. This would be a skillful and completely virtuous act without even an ounce of negativity. Listen to Shakyamuni:




      “O sons of a virtuous family! The sutras that the Tathāgata has
      expounded are all to save the sentient beings. Whether the Tathāgata
      teaches about himself or others, whether he reveals his form or that
      of others, whether he shows his acts or those of others, everything he
      says is true, never false.
      “Why is this? Because the Tathāgata
      perceives all the marks of the triple world as they really are: that
      there is no birth and death, coming or going; that there is also no
      existence or extinction in the world, truth or falsehood, sameness or
      difference. The Tathāgata does not view the triple world as sentient
      beings in the triple world see it. The Tathāgata perceives such things
      clearly and without mistakes.



      “Since sentient beings have various natures, desires, behaviors,
      thoughts, and distinctions, the Tathāgata, wanting to cause them to
      plant roots of good merit, has explained various teachings through a
      variety of examples, explanations, and illustrations. He has not
      desisted from doing buddha acts even for a single moment and in this
      way it has been an extremely long time since I attained buddhahood. My
      lifespan is immeasurable and incalculable. I abide forever without
      entering parinirvāṇa.




      All emphasis is my own. Please read the Lotus Sutra and understand.



      Hope this helps!






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      • Do you have sources for this?
        – ruben2020
        Aug 8 at 5:26










      • Yeshe, this is probably a mahayanan source you're referring to, isn't it?
        – Val
        Aug 8 at 6:28











      • @Val I think the story you referenced is found in (or from) the (introduction to the) Jataka Tales, which, tell of the previous lives of the Buddha (or Bodhisattva)
        – ChrisW♦
        Aug 8 at 8:07










      • @ruben2020 are you looking for original sutra/tantra sources? Or is the new link above adequate?
        – Yeshe Tenley
        Aug 8 at 14:02










      • @Val yes, I am giving the answer from the Mahayana viewpoint which differs from Theravada on this question
        – Yeshe Tenley
        Aug 8 at 14:03

















      up vote
      0
      down vote













      From what I was thought path to samma sambuddha is not in stages like that of an aharath. He reach buddhahood within a single moment. Untill that moment he would be vulnerable.



      But on the other hand you could argue that he was never vulnerable, as from the point another Buddha declared that he will become a Buddha, he is destined to get there.



      Also about mara, mara has multiple meanings. One is your own inmer devils, other is there exist a being/a role played by a being. So that being would not know if he was vulnarable or not.






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        5 Answers
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        5 Answers
        5






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

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        active

        oldest

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        up vote
        2
        down vote













        In my understanding, Buddha did not progress through the four stages of enlightenment he later prescribed for his students.



        This is because, for Buddha students - you start with theoretical understanding (stream entry), and then you practice according to instructions until you achieve it (arahant-hood).



        In Buddha's case, because he is Self-Awakened, he starts with intuitive practice and then achieves understanding (Bodhi).



        So in Buddha's case he does not proceed gradually, phase by phase, like assembling the puzzle by looking at the complete picture. Instead, it's like solving a puzzle randomly - by the time he sat under the Bodhi Tree, he had assembled most of the pieces but still did not know what was shown on the picture.



        This is why in Buddha's case he left all interpretative possibilities open until the last moment, which means he still had doubts until the very last moment. Those doubts are represented in the anthropomorphic personification known as "the Mara".



        In case of Buddha's students, the interpretative framework is locked in place from the time of stream-entry, so doubts are eliminated at that phase.






        share|improve this answer

























          up vote
          2
          down vote













          In my understanding, Buddha did not progress through the four stages of enlightenment he later prescribed for his students.



          This is because, for Buddha students - you start with theoretical understanding (stream entry), and then you practice according to instructions until you achieve it (arahant-hood).



          In Buddha's case, because he is Self-Awakened, he starts with intuitive practice and then achieves understanding (Bodhi).



          So in Buddha's case he does not proceed gradually, phase by phase, like assembling the puzzle by looking at the complete picture. Instead, it's like solving a puzzle randomly - by the time he sat under the Bodhi Tree, he had assembled most of the pieces but still did not know what was shown on the picture.



          This is why in Buddha's case he left all interpretative possibilities open until the last moment, which means he still had doubts until the very last moment. Those doubts are represented in the anthropomorphic personification known as "the Mara".



          In case of Buddha's students, the interpretative framework is locked in place from the time of stream-entry, so doubts are eliminated at that phase.






          share|improve this answer























            up vote
            2
            down vote










            up vote
            2
            down vote









            In my understanding, Buddha did not progress through the four stages of enlightenment he later prescribed for his students.



            This is because, for Buddha students - you start with theoretical understanding (stream entry), and then you practice according to instructions until you achieve it (arahant-hood).



            In Buddha's case, because he is Self-Awakened, he starts with intuitive practice and then achieves understanding (Bodhi).



            So in Buddha's case he does not proceed gradually, phase by phase, like assembling the puzzle by looking at the complete picture. Instead, it's like solving a puzzle randomly - by the time he sat under the Bodhi Tree, he had assembled most of the pieces but still did not know what was shown on the picture.



            This is why in Buddha's case he left all interpretative possibilities open until the last moment, which means he still had doubts until the very last moment. Those doubts are represented in the anthropomorphic personification known as "the Mara".



            In case of Buddha's students, the interpretative framework is locked in place from the time of stream-entry, so doubts are eliminated at that phase.






            share|improve this answer













            In my understanding, Buddha did not progress through the four stages of enlightenment he later prescribed for his students.



            This is because, for Buddha students - you start with theoretical understanding (stream entry), and then you practice according to instructions until you achieve it (arahant-hood).



            In Buddha's case, because he is Self-Awakened, he starts with intuitive practice and then achieves understanding (Bodhi).



            So in Buddha's case he does not proceed gradually, phase by phase, like assembling the puzzle by looking at the complete picture. Instead, it's like solving a puzzle randomly - by the time he sat under the Bodhi Tree, he had assembled most of the pieces but still did not know what was shown on the picture.



            This is why in Buddha's case he left all interpretative possibilities open until the last moment, which means he still had doubts until the very last moment. Those doubts are represented in the anthropomorphic personification known as "the Mara".



            In case of Buddha's students, the interpretative framework is locked in place from the time of stream-entry, so doubts are eliminated at that phase.







            share|improve this answer













            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer











            answered Aug 7 at 15:15









            Andrei Volkov♦

            34.4k229103




            34.4k229103




















                up vote
                2
                down vote













                For reference, according to this account1, it was Mara's choice to assail the Buddha -- Mara is presented as another/separate being, an agent, a divinity (and not as a metaphor for unenlightened aspects of the future Buddha's mind)2:




                At this point the god Mâra, exclaiming, "Prince Siddhattha is desirous of passing beyond my control, but I will never allow it!" went and announced the news to his army, and sounding the Mâra war-cry, drew out for battle.




                And in that "struggle" the Buddha used (not the 4th Jhana but) his recollection of (or his accomplishment of, his perfection of) the Ten Perfections, five great donations, struggle for the welfare of the world, for example:




                My mother and father are not here, nor my brother, nor any other relative. But I have these Ten Perfections, like old retainers long cherished at my board. It therefore behooves me to make the Ten Perfections my shield and my sword ...





                If you want to interpret it metaphorically, perhaps see it as his "Am I worthy?" struggle with "conceit" (which is one of the last fetters) -- e.g. because "conceit" includes "comparison", and this passage includes explicit comparison between the Buddha and Mara.



                Or see as an affirmation or explanation for us, to help explain how we should view him as worthy.




                I think the recollection of perfections may also echo some of the knowledge associated with final enlightenment:




                The Arahant SN 22.110



                And when, monks, a monk, having seen as they really are the arising and the passing away, the attractiveness and the danger, and the deliverance from the five groups of clinging, is released without clinging, he, monks, is called a monk in whom the cankers are destroyed, who has lived the life to perfection, done what had to be done, put down the burden, gained the highest goal, worn through the fetters of rebirth, and is liberated by perfect insight.



                (The whole phrase is a standard description of the Arahant found at many places in the Canon)




                Speaking of "perfections" in general, IMO the English word "perfect" has at least three related meanings, i.e., 1) very good (high quality); 2) complete (finished, past tense); 3) whole.




                1The Attainment of Buddhaship -- Translated from the Introduction to the Jâtaka -- referenced from this answer



                2There are other records of discourse between the Buddha and Mara, which happen after the Buddha's awakening -- for example even in the Maha-parinibbana Sutta:




                And when the Venerable Ananda had gone away, Mara, the Evil One, approached the Blessed One. And standing at one side he spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "Now, O Lord, let the Blessed One come to his final passing away; let the Happy One utterly pass away! The time has come for the Parinibbana of the Lord.







                share|improve this answer























                • If I understand correctly, the Theravada answer is that Mara was a real separate being that tried to tempt Buddha Shakyamuni but utterly failed as Gautama had already abandoned sensuous desires and thus no contradiction exists with OP's question?
                  – Yeshe Tenley
                  Aug 8 at 15:02






                • 1




                  That sounds like a plausible answer to me (and "free from sensual desire" is characteristic of a "non-returner").
                  – ChrisW♦
                  Aug 8 at 15:06














                up vote
                2
                down vote













                For reference, according to this account1, it was Mara's choice to assail the Buddha -- Mara is presented as another/separate being, an agent, a divinity (and not as a metaphor for unenlightened aspects of the future Buddha's mind)2:




                At this point the god Mâra, exclaiming, "Prince Siddhattha is desirous of passing beyond my control, but I will never allow it!" went and announced the news to his army, and sounding the Mâra war-cry, drew out for battle.




                And in that "struggle" the Buddha used (not the 4th Jhana but) his recollection of (or his accomplishment of, his perfection of) the Ten Perfections, five great donations, struggle for the welfare of the world, for example:




                My mother and father are not here, nor my brother, nor any other relative. But I have these Ten Perfections, like old retainers long cherished at my board. It therefore behooves me to make the Ten Perfections my shield and my sword ...





                If you want to interpret it metaphorically, perhaps see it as his "Am I worthy?" struggle with "conceit" (which is one of the last fetters) -- e.g. because "conceit" includes "comparison", and this passage includes explicit comparison between the Buddha and Mara.



                Or see as an affirmation or explanation for us, to help explain how we should view him as worthy.




                I think the recollection of perfections may also echo some of the knowledge associated with final enlightenment:




                The Arahant SN 22.110



                And when, monks, a monk, having seen as they really are the arising and the passing away, the attractiveness and the danger, and the deliverance from the five groups of clinging, is released without clinging, he, monks, is called a monk in whom the cankers are destroyed, who has lived the life to perfection, done what had to be done, put down the burden, gained the highest goal, worn through the fetters of rebirth, and is liberated by perfect insight.



                (The whole phrase is a standard description of the Arahant found at many places in the Canon)




                Speaking of "perfections" in general, IMO the English word "perfect" has at least three related meanings, i.e., 1) very good (high quality); 2) complete (finished, past tense); 3) whole.




                1The Attainment of Buddhaship -- Translated from the Introduction to the Jâtaka -- referenced from this answer



                2There are other records of discourse between the Buddha and Mara, which happen after the Buddha's awakening -- for example even in the Maha-parinibbana Sutta:




                And when the Venerable Ananda had gone away, Mara, the Evil One, approached the Blessed One. And standing at one side he spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "Now, O Lord, let the Blessed One come to his final passing away; let the Happy One utterly pass away! The time has come for the Parinibbana of the Lord.







                share|improve this answer























                • If I understand correctly, the Theravada answer is that Mara was a real separate being that tried to tempt Buddha Shakyamuni but utterly failed as Gautama had already abandoned sensuous desires and thus no contradiction exists with OP's question?
                  – Yeshe Tenley
                  Aug 8 at 15:02






                • 1




                  That sounds like a plausible answer to me (and "free from sensual desire" is characteristic of a "non-returner").
                  – ChrisW♦
                  Aug 8 at 15:06












                up vote
                2
                down vote










                up vote
                2
                down vote









                For reference, according to this account1, it was Mara's choice to assail the Buddha -- Mara is presented as another/separate being, an agent, a divinity (and not as a metaphor for unenlightened aspects of the future Buddha's mind)2:




                At this point the god Mâra, exclaiming, "Prince Siddhattha is desirous of passing beyond my control, but I will never allow it!" went and announced the news to his army, and sounding the Mâra war-cry, drew out for battle.




                And in that "struggle" the Buddha used (not the 4th Jhana but) his recollection of (or his accomplishment of, his perfection of) the Ten Perfections, five great donations, struggle for the welfare of the world, for example:




                My mother and father are not here, nor my brother, nor any other relative. But I have these Ten Perfections, like old retainers long cherished at my board. It therefore behooves me to make the Ten Perfections my shield and my sword ...





                If you want to interpret it metaphorically, perhaps see it as his "Am I worthy?" struggle with "conceit" (which is one of the last fetters) -- e.g. because "conceit" includes "comparison", and this passage includes explicit comparison between the Buddha and Mara.



                Or see as an affirmation or explanation for us, to help explain how we should view him as worthy.




                I think the recollection of perfections may also echo some of the knowledge associated with final enlightenment:




                The Arahant SN 22.110



                And when, monks, a monk, having seen as they really are the arising and the passing away, the attractiveness and the danger, and the deliverance from the five groups of clinging, is released without clinging, he, monks, is called a monk in whom the cankers are destroyed, who has lived the life to perfection, done what had to be done, put down the burden, gained the highest goal, worn through the fetters of rebirth, and is liberated by perfect insight.



                (The whole phrase is a standard description of the Arahant found at many places in the Canon)




                Speaking of "perfections" in general, IMO the English word "perfect" has at least three related meanings, i.e., 1) very good (high quality); 2) complete (finished, past tense); 3) whole.




                1The Attainment of Buddhaship -- Translated from the Introduction to the Jâtaka -- referenced from this answer



                2There are other records of discourse between the Buddha and Mara, which happen after the Buddha's awakening -- for example even in the Maha-parinibbana Sutta:




                And when the Venerable Ananda had gone away, Mara, the Evil One, approached the Blessed One. And standing at one side he spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "Now, O Lord, let the Blessed One come to his final passing away; let the Happy One utterly pass away! The time has come for the Parinibbana of the Lord.







                share|improve this answer















                For reference, according to this account1, it was Mara's choice to assail the Buddha -- Mara is presented as another/separate being, an agent, a divinity (and not as a metaphor for unenlightened aspects of the future Buddha's mind)2:




                At this point the god Mâra, exclaiming, "Prince Siddhattha is desirous of passing beyond my control, but I will never allow it!" went and announced the news to his army, and sounding the Mâra war-cry, drew out for battle.




                And in that "struggle" the Buddha used (not the 4th Jhana but) his recollection of (or his accomplishment of, his perfection of) the Ten Perfections, five great donations, struggle for the welfare of the world, for example:




                My mother and father are not here, nor my brother, nor any other relative. But I have these Ten Perfections, like old retainers long cherished at my board. It therefore behooves me to make the Ten Perfections my shield and my sword ...





                If you want to interpret it metaphorically, perhaps see it as his "Am I worthy?" struggle with "conceit" (which is one of the last fetters) -- e.g. because "conceit" includes "comparison", and this passage includes explicit comparison between the Buddha and Mara.



                Or see as an affirmation or explanation for us, to help explain how we should view him as worthy.




                I think the recollection of perfections may also echo some of the knowledge associated with final enlightenment:




                The Arahant SN 22.110



                And when, monks, a monk, having seen as they really are the arising and the passing away, the attractiveness and the danger, and the deliverance from the five groups of clinging, is released without clinging, he, monks, is called a monk in whom the cankers are destroyed, who has lived the life to perfection, done what had to be done, put down the burden, gained the highest goal, worn through the fetters of rebirth, and is liberated by perfect insight.



                (The whole phrase is a standard description of the Arahant found at many places in the Canon)




                Speaking of "perfections" in general, IMO the English word "perfect" has at least three related meanings, i.e., 1) very good (high quality); 2) complete (finished, past tense); 3) whole.




                1The Attainment of Buddhaship -- Translated from the Introduction to the Jâtaka -- referenced from this answer



                2There are other records of discourse between the Buddha and Mara, which happen after the Buddha's awakening -- for example even in the Maha-parinibbana Sutta:




                And when the Venerable Ananda had gone away, Mara, the Evil One, approached the Blessed One. And standing at one side he spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "Now, O Lord, let the Blessed One come to his final passing away; let the Happy One utterly pass away! The time has come for the Parinibbana of the Lord.








                share|improve this answer















                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited Aug 7 at 17:06


























                answered Aug 7 at 15:32









                ChrisW♦

                26.8k42382




                26.8k42382











                • If I understand correctly, the Theravada answer is that Mara was a real separate being that tried to tempt Buddha Shakyamuni but utterly failed as Gautama had already abandoned sensuous desires and thus no contradiction exists with OP's question?
                  – Yeshe Tenley
                  Aug 8 at 15:02






                • 1




                  That sounds like a plausible answer to me (and "free from sensual desire" is characteristic of a "non-returner").
                  – ChrisW♦
                  Aug 8 at 15:06
















                • If I understand correctly, the Theravada answer is that Mara was a real separate being that tried to tempt Buddha Shakyamuni but utterly failed as Gautama had already abandoned sensuous desires and thus no contradiction exists with OP's question?
                  – Yeshe Tenley
                  Aug 8 at 15:02






                • 1




                  That sounds like a plausible answer to me (and "free from sensual desire" is characteristic of a "non-returner").
                  – ChrisW♦
                  Aug 8 at 15:06















                If I understand correctly, the Theravada answer is that Mara was a real separate being that tried to tempt Buddha Shakyamuni but utterly failed as Gautama had already abandoned sensuous desires and thus no contradiction exists with OP's question?
                – Yeshe Tenley
                Aug 8 at 15:02




                If I understand correctly, the Theravada answer is that Mara was a real separate being that tried to tempt Buddha Shakyamuni but utterly failed as Gautama had already abandoned sensuous desires and thus no contradiction exists with OP's question?
                – Yeshe Tenley
                Aug 8 at 15:02




                1




                1




                That sounds like a plausible answer to me (and "free from sensual desire" is characteristic of a "non-returner").
                – ChrisW♦
                Aug 8 at 15:06




                That sounds like a plausible answer to me (and "free from sensual desire" is characteristic of a "non-returner").
                – ChrisW♦
                Aug 8 at 15:06










                up vote
                0
                down vote













                According to MN 36, the Buddha was not released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming and the fermentation of ignorance, until the very last moment of enlightenment, when he attained the third knowledge. Mara could be a personification of these three types of fermentations.




                "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished,
                rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to
                imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the
                mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that
                'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the
                cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of
                stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of
                fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the
                way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus
                knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of
                sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from
                the fermentation of ignorance.
                With release, there was the knowledge,
                'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled,
                the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'



                "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the
                night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was
                destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, &
                resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not
                invade my mind or remain.







                share|improve this answer

























                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote













                  According to MN 36, the Buddha was not released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming and the fermentation of ignorance, until the very last moment of enlightenment, when he attained the third knowledge. Mara could be a personification of these three types of fermentations.




                  "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished,
                  rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to
                  imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the
                  mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that
                  'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the
                  cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of
                  stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of
                  fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the
                  way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus
                  knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of
                  sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from
                  the fermentation of ignorance.
                  With release, there was the knowledge,
                  'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled,
                  the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'



                  "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the
                  night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was
                  destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, &
                  resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not
                  invade my mind or remain.







                  share|improve this answer























                    up vote
                    0
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    0
                    down vote









                    According to MN 36, the Buddha was not released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming and the fermentation of ignorance, until the very last moment of enlightenment, when he attained the third knowledge. Mara could be a personification of these three types of fermentations.




                    "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished,
                    rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to
                    imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the
                    mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that
                    'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the
                    cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of
                    stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of
                    fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the
                    way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus
                    knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of
                    sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from
                    the fermentation of ignorance.
                    With release, there was the knowledge,
                    'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled,
                    the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'



                    "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the
                    night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was
                    destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, &
                    resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not
                    invade my mind or remain.







                    share|improve this answer













                    According to MN 36, the Buddha was not released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming and the fermentation of ignorance, until the very last moment of enlightenment, when he attained the third knowledge. Mara could be a personification of these three types of fermentations.




                    "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished,
                    rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to
                    imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the
                    mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that
                    'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the
                    cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of
                    stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of
                    fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the
                    way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus
                    knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of
                    sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from
                    the fermentation of ignorance.
                    With release, there was the knowledge,
                    'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled,
                    the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'



                    "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the
                    night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was
                    destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, &
                    resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not
                    invade my mind or remain.








                    share|improve this answer













                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer











                    answered Aug 7 at 16:17









                    ruben2020

                    12.2k21136




                    12.2k21136




















                        up vote
                        0
                        down vote













                        The Buddha achieved enlightenment many, many, many lifetimes before he was ever born as Siddhartha Gautama. The story of his enlightenment was a useful and skillful retelling of how he became enlightened long, long, long before. Why did the Buddha manifest as an unenlightened young Bodhisattva named Gautama who completed the path in this very life? He did it out of compassion for all sentient beings to teach them the steps to liberation.



                        This is a point of contention between the Theravada and Mahayana view of the Buddha. According to the latter he was already enlightened aeons before he ever manifested as Shakyamuni. See here for contemporary account from the Mahayana viewpoint.



                        For a Mahayana sutra reference have a look at the Lotus Sutra.



                        This is from a recent english translation of the Lotus Sutra. Listen to how Bodhisattva Maitreya implores Shakyamuni to explain how Shakyamuni describes enlightened deeds committed aeons ago juxtaposed with his recent enlightenment 40 years ago:




                        Then Bodhisattva Mahāsattva Maitreya and the innumerable other
                        bodhisattvas became doubtful and confused concerning this
                        unprecedented experience. They thought this:



                        How is it possible in such a short time for the Bhagavat to have
                        inspired such an immeasurable, limitless, incalculable number of great
                        bodhisattvas, enabling them to abide in highest, complete
                        enlightenment? Immediately they addressed the Buddha, saying: “O
                        Bhagavat! When the Tathāgata was a prince he left the palace of the
                        Śākyas, sat on the terrace of enlightenment which is not far from the
                        city of Gayā, and attained highest, complete enlightenment. Since then
                        more than forty years have passed. How is it possible, O Bhagavat, for
                        you to have done such great buddha acts in such a short period of
                        time? Is it through the might of the Buddha and through the Buddha’s
                        qualities that you have inspired such an assembly of incalculable
                        great bodhisattvas to achieve highest, complete enlightenment?



                        ...
                        This would be difficult to believe; and what the Buddha has now taught
                        is exactly like this. It has not, in fact, been so long since the
                        Buddha attained the path.
                        Yet for the sake of the buddha path this
                        great assembly of bodhisattvas has been diligently striving for
                        innumerable thousands of myriads of koá¹­is of kalpas.



                        ...
                        However, if the bodhisattvas in whom the thought of enlightenment has
                        recently awakened hear this after the Buddha’s parinirvāṇa, they will
                        not accept it; and this will bring about conditions for erring deeds
                        that destroy the Dharma. That is why, O Bhagavat, we entreat you to
                        explain it to us and remove our doubts.




                        And this is how Buddha Shakyamuni answered:




                        Thereupon the Buddha addressed the bodhisattvas and the entire great
                        assembly, saying: “O sons of a virtuous family! You should believe the
                        true words of the Tathāgata.” He addressed the great assembly again,
                        saying: “You should believe the Tathāgata’s true words.” He repeated
                        this to them, saying: “You should believe the Tathāgata’s true words.”



                        Then the great assembly of bodhisattvas, headed by Maitreya, addressed
                        the Buddha with their palms pressed together, saying: “O Bhagavat! We
                        entreat you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.” After
                        they had spoken in this way three times, they again said: “We entreat
                        you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.”



                        After they had spoken in this way three times, they again said: “We
                        entreat you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.” Then
                        the Bhagavat, realizing that the bodhisattvas continued to entreat him
                        after those three times, addressed them, saying: “Listen carefully to
                        the Tathāgata’s secret and transcendent powers. The devas, humans, and
                        asuras in all the worlds all think that the present Buddha, Śākyamuni,
                        left the palace of the Śākyas, sat on the terrace of enlightenment not
                        far from the city of Gayā, and attained highest, complete
                        enlightenment. However, O sons of a virtuous family, immeasurable,
                        limitless, hundreds of thousands of myriads of koá¹­is of nayutas of
                        kalpas have passed since I actually attained buddhahood.




                        Why did Buddha Shakyamuni manifest himself as attaining enlightenment in 40 years in his own lifetime? Why does he tell some sentient beings that he will pass into paranirvana and be utterly extinguished when in fact he will not? ... skillful means:




                        “O sons of a virtuous family! If any sentient being comes to me, I
                        perceive the dullness or sharpness of his faith and other faculties
                        with my buddhaeye. According to the way I should bring them to the
                        path, I, myself, proclaim different names and lifespans in various
                        places.
                        In each case I have also clearly stated that I would enter
                        parinirvāṇa. Through various skillful means I have explained
                        subtle teachings and have made the sentient beings rejoice.



                        “O sons of a virtuous family! To those beings whom the Tathāgata
                        perceives as taking pleasure in the inferior teachings, who have few
                        qualities and grave defilements, he teaches that the Buddha attained
                        highest, complete enlightenment after he renounced household life in
                        his young age. However, it has been a very long time indeed since I
                        attained buddhahood.
                        I give such an explanation only to lead and
                        inspire the sentient beings to enter the buddha path through skillful
                        means.




                        Don't think for even a moment that the Buddha has spoken falsely. Everything he does is out of compassion for sentient beings. If your house was on fire and your kids refusing to budge you would use skillful means to lure them out of compassion. This would be a skillful and completely virtuous act without even an ounce of negativity. Listen to Shakyamuni:




                        “O sons of a virtuous family! The sutras that the Tathāgata has
                        expounded are all to save the sentient beings. Whether the Tathāgata
                        teaches about himself or others, whether he reveals his form or that
                        of others, whether he shows his acts or those of others, everything he
                        says is true, never false.
                        “Why is this? Because the Tathāgata
                        perceives all the marks of the triple world as they really are: that
                        there is no birth and death, coming or going; that there is also no
                        existence or extinction in the world, truth or falsehood, sameness or
                        difference. The Tathāgata does not view the triple world as sentient
                        beings in the triple world see it. The Tathāgata perceives such things
                        clearly and without mistakes.



                        “Since sentient beings have various natures, desires, behaviors,
                        thoughts, and distinctions, the Tathāgata, wanting to cause them to
                        plant roots of good merit, has explained various teachings through a
                        variety of examples, explanations, and illustrations. He has not
                        desisted from doing buddha acts even for a single moment and in this
                        way it has been an extremely long time since I attained buddhahood. My
                        lifespan is immeasurable and incalculable. I abide forever without
                        entering parinirvāṇa.




                        All emphasis is my own. Please read the Lotus Sutra and understand.



                        Hope this helps!






                        share|improve this answer























                        • Do you have sources for this?
                          – ruben2020
                          Aug 8 at 5:26










                        • Yeshe, this is probably a mahayanan source you're referring to, isn't it?
                          – Val
                          Aug 8 at 6:28











                        • @Val I think the story you referenced is found in (or from) the (introduction to the) Jataka Tales, which, tell of the previous lives of the Buddha (or Bodhisattva)
                          – ChrisW♦
                          Aug 8 at 8:07










                        • @ruben2020 are you looking for original sutra/tantra sources? Or is the new link above adequate?
                          – Yeshe Tenley
                          Aug 8 at 14:02










                        • @Val yes, I am giving the answer from the Mahayana viewpoint which differs from Theravada on this question
                          – Yeshe Tenley
                          Aug 8 at 14:03














                        up vote
                        0
                        down vote













                        The Buddha achieved enlightenment many, many, many lifetimes before he was ever born as Siddhartha Gautama. The story of his enlightenment was a useful and skillful retelling of how he became enlightened long, long, long before. Why did the Buddha manifest as an unenlightened young Bodhisattva named Gautama who completed the path in this very life? He did it out of compassion for all sentient beings to teach them the steps to liberation.



                        This is a point of contention between the Theravada and Mahayana view of the Buddha. According to the latter he was already enlightened aeons before he ever manifested as Shakyamuni. See here for contemporary account from the Mahayana viewpoint.



                        For a Mahayana sutra reference have a look at the Lotus Sutra.



                        This is from a recent english translation of the Lotus Sutra. Listen to how Bodhisattva Maitreya implores Shakyamuni to explain how Shakyamuni describes enlightened deeds committed aeons ago juxtaposed with his recent enlightenment 40 years ago:




                        Then Bodhisattva Mahāsattva Maitreya and the innumerable other
                        bodhisattvas became doubtful and confused concerning this
                        unprecedented experience. They thought this:



                        How is it possible in such a short time for the Bhagavat to have
                        inspired such an immeasurable, limitless, incalculable number of great
                        bodhisattvas, enabling them to abide in highest, complete
                        enlightenment? Immediately they addressed the Buddha, saying: “O
                        Bhagavat! When the Tathāgata was a prince he left the palace of the
                        Śākyas, sat on the terrace of enlightenment which is not far from the
                        city of Gayā, and attained highest, complete enlightenment. Since then
                        more than forty years have passed. How is it possible, O Bhagavat, for
                        you to have done such great buddha acts in such a short period of
                        time? Is it through the might of the Buddha and through the Buddha’s
                        qualities that you have inspired such an assembly of incalculable
                        great bodhisattvas to achieve highest, complete enlightenment?



                        ...
                        This would be difficult to believe; and what the Buddha has now taught
                        is exactly like this. It has not, in fact, been so long since the
                        Buddha attained the path.
                        Yet for the sake of the buddha path this
                        great assembly of bodhisattvas has been diligently striving for
                        innumerable thousands of myriads of koá¹­is of kalpas.



                        ...
                        However, if the bodhisattvas in whom the thought of enlightenment has
                        recently awakened hear this after the Buddha’s parinirvāṇa, they will
                        not accept it; and this will bring about conditions for erring deeds
                        that destroy the Dharma. That is why, O Bhagavat, we entreat you to
                        explain it to us and remove our doubts.




                        And this is how Buddha Shakyamuni answered:




                        Thereupon the Buddha addressed the bodhisattvas and the entire great
                        assembly, saying: “O sons of a virtuous family! You should believe the
                        true words of the Tathāgata.” He addressed the great assembly again,
                        saying: “You should believe the Tathāgata’s true words.” He repeated
                        this to them, saying: “You should believe the Tathāgata’s true words.”



                        Then the great assembly of bodhisattvas, headed by Maitreya, addressed
                        the Buddha with their palms pressed together, saying: “O Bhagavat! We
                        entreat you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.” After
                        they had spoken in this way three times, they again said: “We entreat
                        you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.”



                        After they had spoken in this way three times, they again said: “We
                        entreat you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.” Then
                        the Bhagavat, realizing that the bodhisattvas continued to entreat him
                        after those three times, addressed them, saying: “Listen carefully to
                        the Tathāgata’s secret and transcendent powers. The devas, humans, and
                        asuras in all the worlds all think that the present Buddha, Śākyamuni,
                        left the palace of the Śākyas, sat on the terrace of enlightenment not
                        far from the city of Gayā, and attained highest, complete
                        enlightenment. However, O sons of a virtuous family, immeasurable,
                        limitless, hundreds of thousands of myriads of koá¹­is of nayutas of
                        kalpas have passed since I actually attained buddhahood.




                        Why did Buddha Shakyamuni manifest himself as attaining enlightenment in 40 years in his own lifetime? Why does he tell some sentient beings that he will pass into paranirvana and be utterly extinguished when in fact he will not? ... skillful means:




                        “O sons of a virtuous family! If any sentient being comes to me, I
                        perceive the dullness or sharpness of his faith and other faculties
                        with my buddhaeye. According to the way I should bring them to the
                        path, I, myself, proclaim different names and lifespans in various
                        places.
                        In each case I have also clearly stated that I would enter
                        parinirvāṇa. Through various skillful means I have explained
                        subtle teachings and have made the sentient beings rejoice.



                        “O sons of a virtuous family! To those beings whom the Tathāgata
                        perceives as taking pleasure in the inferior teachings, who have few
                        qualities and grave defilements, he teaches that the Buddha attained
                        highest, complete enlightenment after he renounced household life in
                        his young age. However, it has been a very long time indeed since I
                        attained buddhahood.
                        I give such an explanation only to lead and
                        inspire the sentient beings to enter the buddha path through skillful
                        means.




                        Don't think for even a moment that the Buddha has spoken falsely. Everything he does is out of compassion for sentient beings. If your house was on fire and your kids refusing to budge you would use skillful means to lure them out of compassion. This would be a skillful and completely virtuous act without even an ounce of negativity. Listen to Shakyamuni:




                        “O sons of a virtuous family! The sutras that the Tathāgata has
                        expounded are all to save the sentient beings. Whether the Tathāgata
                        teaches about himself or others, whether he reveals his form or that
                        of others, whether he shows his acts or those of others, everything he
                        says is true, never false.
                        “Why is this? Because the Tathāgata
                        perceives all the marks of the triple world as they really are: that
                        there is no birth and death, coming or going; that there is also no
                        existence or extinction in the world, truth or falsehood, sameness or
                        difference. The Tathāgata does not view the triple world as sentient
                        beings in the triple world see it. The Tathāgata perceives such things
                        clearly and without mistakes.



                        “Since sentient beings have various natures, desires, behaviors,
                        thoughts, and distinctions, the Tathāgata, wanting to cause them to
                        plant roots of good merit, has explained various teachings through a
                        variety of examples, explanations, and illustrations. He has not
                        desisted from doing buddha acts even for a single moment and in this
                        way it has been an extremely long time since I attained buddhahood. My
                        lifespan is immeasurable and incalculable. I abide forever without
                        entering parinirvāṇa.




                        All emphasis is my own. Please read the Lotus Sutra and understand.



                        Hope this helps!






                        share|improve this answer























                        • Do you have sources for this?
                          – ruben2020
                          Aug 8 at 5:26










                        • Yeshe, this is probably a mahayanan source you're referring to, isn't it?
                          – Val
                          Aug 8 at 6:28











                        • @Val I think the story you referenced is found in (or from) the (introduction to the) Jataka Tales, which, tell of the previous lives of the Buddha (or Bodhisattva)
                          – ChrisW♦
                          Aug 8 at 8:07










                        • @ruben2020 are you looking for original sutra/tantra sources? Or is the new link above adequate?
                          – Yeshe Tenley
                          Aug 8 at 14:02










                        • @Val yes, I am giving the answer from the Mahayana viewpoint which differs from Theravada on this question
                          – Yeshe Tenley
                          Aug 8 at 14:03












                        up vote
                        0
                        down vote










                        up vote
                        0
                        down vote









                        The Buddha achieved enlightenment many, many, many lifetimes before he was ever born as Siddhartha Gautama. The story of his enlightenment was a useful and skillful retelling of how he became enlightened long, long, long before. Why did the Buddha manifest as an unenlightened young Bodhisattva named Gautama who completed the path in this very life? He did it out of compassion for all sentient beings to teach them the steps to liberation.



                        This is a point of contention between the Theravada and Mahayana view of the Buddha. According to the latter he was already enlightened aeons before he ever manifested as Shakyamuni. See here for contemporary account from the Mahayana viewpoint.



                        For a Mahayana sutra reference have a look at the Lotus Sutra.



                        This is from a recent english translation of the Lotus Sutra. Listen to how Bodhisattva Maitreya implores Shakyamuni to explain how Shakyamuni describes enlightened deeds committed aeons ago juxtaposed with his recent enlightenment 40 years ago:




                        Then Bodhisattva Mahāsattva Maitreya and the innumerable other
                        bodhisattvas became doubtful and confused concerning this
                        unprecedented experience. They thought this:



                        How is it possible in such a short time for the Bhagavat to have
                        inspired such an immeasurable, limitless, incalculable number of great
                        bodhisattvas, enabling them to abide in highest, complete
                        enlightenment? Immediately they addressed the Buddha, saying: “O
                        Bhagavat! When the Tathāgata was a prince he left the palace of the
                        Śākyas, sat on the terrace of enlightenment which is not far from the
                        city of Gayā, and attained highest, complete enlightenment. Since then
                        more than forty years have passed. How is it possible, O Bhagavat, for
                        you to have done such great buddha acts in such a short period of
                        time? Is it through the might of the Buddha and through the Buddha’s
                        qualities that you have inspired such an assembly of incalculable
                        great bodhisattvas to achieve highest, complete enlightenment?



                        ...
                        This would be difficult to believe; and what the Buddha has now taught
                        is exactly like this. It has not, in fact, been so long since the
                        Buddha attained the path.
                        Yet for the sake of the buddha path this
                        great assembly of bodhisattvas has been diligently striving for
                        innumerable thousands of myriads of koá¹­is of kalpas.



                        ...
                        However, if the bodhisattvas in whom the thought of enlightenment has
                        recently awakened hear this after the Buddha’s parinirvāṇa, they will
                        not accept it; and this will bring about conditions for erring deeds
                        that destroy the Dharma. That is why, O Bhagavat, we entreat you to
                        explain it to us and remove our doubts.




                        And this is how Buddha Shakyamuni answered:




                        Thereupon the Buddha addressed the bodhisattvas and the entire great
                        assembly, saying: “O sons of a virtuous family! You should believe the
                        true words of the Tathāgata.” He addressed the great assembly again,
                        saying: “You should believe the Tathāgata’s true words.” He repeated
                        this to them, saying: “You should believe the Tathāgata’s true words.”



                        Then the great assembly of bodhisattvas, headed by Maitreya, addressed
                        the Buddha with their palms pressed together, saying: “O Bhagavat! We
                        entreat you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.” After
                        they had spoken in this way three times, they again said: “We entreat
                        you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.”



                        After they had spoken in this way three times, they again said: “We
                        entreat you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.” Then
                        the Bhagavat, realizing that the bodhisattvas continued to entreat him
                        after those three times, addressed them, saying: “Listen carefully to
                        the Tathāgata’s secret and transcendent powers. The devas, humans, and
                        asuras in all the worlds all think that the present Buddha, Śākyamuni,
                        left the palace of the Śākyas, sat on the terrace of enlightenment not
                        far from the city of Gayā, and attained highest, complete
                        enlightenment. However, O sons of a virtuous family, immeasurable,
                        limitless, hundreds of thousands of myriads of koá¹­is of nayutas of
                        kalpas have passed since I actually attained buddhahood.




                        Why did Buddha Shakyamuni manifest himself as attaining enlightenment in 40 years in his own lifetime? Why does he tell some sentient beings that he will pass into paranirvana and be utterly extinguished when in fact he will not? ... skillful means:




                        “O sons of a virtuous family! If any sentient being comes to me, I
                        perceive the dullness or sharpness of his faith and other faculties
                        with my buddhaeye. According to the way I should bring them to the
                        path, I, myself, proclaim different names and lifespans in various
                        places.
                        In each case I have also clearly stated that I would enter
                        parinirvāṇa. Through various skillful means I have explained
                        subtle teachings and have made the sentient beings rejoice.



                        “O sons of a virtuous family! To those beings whom the Tathāgata
                        perceives as taking pleasure in the inferior teachings, who have few
                        qualities and grave defilements, he teaches that the Buddha attained
                        highest, complete enlightenment after he renounced household life in
                        his young age. However, it has been a very long time indeed since I
                        attained buddhahood.
                        I give such an explanation only to lead and
                        inspire the sentient beings to enter the buddha path through skillful
                        means.




                        Don't think for even a moment that the Buddha has spoken falsely. Everything he does is out of compassion for sentient beings. If your house was on fire and your kids refusing to budge you would use skillful means to lure them out of compassion. This would be a skillful and completely virtuous act without even an ounce of negativity. Listen to Shakyamuni:




                        “O sons of a virtuous family! The sutras that the Tathāgata has
                        expounded are all to save the sentient beings. Whether the Tathāgata
                        teaches about himself or others, whether he reveals his form or that
                        of others, whether he shows his acts or those of others, everything he
                        says is true, never false.
                        “Why is this? Because the Tathāgata
                        perceives all the marks of the triple world as they really are: that
                        there is no birth and death, coming or going; that there is also no
                        existence or extinction in the world, truth or falsehood, sameness or
                        difference. The Tathāgata does not view the triple world as sentient
                        beings in the triple world see it. The Tathāgata perceives such things
                        clearly and without mistakes.



                        “Since sentient beings have various natures, desires, behaviors,
                        thoughts, and distinctions, the Tathāgata, wanting to cause them to
                        plant roots of good merit, has explained various teachings through a
                        variety of examples, explanations, and illustrations. He has not
                        desisted from doing buddha acts even for a single moment and in this
                        way it has been an extremely long time since I attained buddhahood. My
                        lifespan is immeasurable and incalculable. I abide forever without
                        entering parinirvāṇa.




                        All emphasis is my own. Please read the Lotus Sutra and understand.



                        Hope this helps!






                        share|improve this answer















                        The Buddha achieved enlightenment many, many, many lifetimes before he was ever born as Siddhartha Gautama. The story of his enlightenment was a useful and skillful retelling of how he became enlightened long, long, long before. Why did the Buddha manifest as an unenlightened young Bodhisattva named Gautama who completed the path in this very life? He did it out of compassion for all sentient beings to teach them the steps to liberation.



                        This is a point of contention between the Theravada and Mahayana view of the Buddha. According to the latter he was already enlightened aeons before he ever manifested as Shakyamuni. See here for contemporary account from the Mahayana viewpoint.



                        For a Mahayana sutra reference have a look at the Lotus Sutra.



                        This is from a recent english translation of the Lotus Sutra. Listen to how Bodhisattva Maitreya implores Shakyamuni to explain how Shakyamuni describes enlightened deeds committed aeons ago juxtaposed with his recent enlightenment 40 years ago:




                        Then Bodhisattva Mahāsattva Maitreya and the innumerable other
                        bodhisattvas became doubtful and confused concerning this
                        unprecedented experience. They thought this:



                        How is it possible in such a short time for the Bhagavat to have
                        inspired such an immeasurable, limitless, incalculable number of great
                        bodhisattvas, enabling them to abide in highest, complete
                        enlightenment? Immediately they addressed the Buddha, saying: “O
                        Bhagavat! When the Tathāgata was a prince he left the palace of the
                        Śākyas, sat on the terrace of enlightenment which is not far from the
                        city of Gayā, and attained highest, complete enlightenment. Since then
                        more than forty years have passed. How is it possible, O Bhagavat, for
                        you to have done such great buddha acts in such a short period of
                        time? Is it through the might of the Buddha and through the Buddha’s
                        qualities that you have inspired such an assembly of incalculable
                        great bodhisattvas to achieve highest, complete enlightenment?



                        ...
                        This would be difficult to believe; and what the Buddha has now taught
                        is exactly like this. It has not, in fact, been so long since the
                        Buddha attained the path.
                        Yet for the sake of the buddha path this
                        great assembly of bodhisattvas has been diligently striving for
                        innumerable thousands of myriads of koá¹­is of kalpas.



                        ...
                        However, if the bodhisattvas in whom the thought of enlightenment has
                        recently awakened hear this after the Buddha’s parinirvāṇa, they will
                        not accept it; and this will bring about conditions for erring deeds
                        that destroy the Dharma. That is why, O Bhagavat, we entreat you to
                        explain it to us and remove our doubts.




                        And this is how Buddha Shakyamuni answered:




                        Thereupon the Buddha addressed the bodhisattvas and the entire great
                        assembly, saying: “O sons of a virtuous family! You should believe the
                        true words of the Tathāgata.” He addressed the great assembly again,
                        saying: “You should believe the Tathāgata’s true words.” He repeated
                        this to them, saying: “You should believe the Tathāgata’s true words.”



                        Then the great assembly of bodhisattvas, headed by Maitreya, addressed
                        the Buddha with their palms pressed together, saying: “O Bhagavat! We
                        entreat you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.” After
                        they had spoken in this way three times, they again said: “We entreat
                        you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.”



                        After they had spoken in this way three times, they again said: “We
                        entreat you to explain it. We will accept the Buddha’s words.” Then
                        the Bhagavat, realizing that the bodhisattvas continued to entreat him
                        after those three times, addressed them, saying: “Listen carefully to
                        the Tathāgata’s secret and transcendent powers. The devas, humans, and
                        asuras in all the worlds all think that the present Buddha, Śākyamuni,
                        left the palace of the Śākyas, sat on the terrace of enlightenment not
                        far from the city of Gayā, and attained highest, complete
                        enlightenment. However, O sons of a virtuous family, immeasurable,
                        limitless, hundreds of thousands of myriads of koá¹­is of nayutas of
                        kalpas have passed since I actually attained buddhahood.




                        Why did Buddha Shakyamuni manifest himself as attaining enlightenment in 40 years in his own lifetime? Why does he tell some sentient beings that he will pass into paranirvana and be utterly extinguished when in fact he will not? ... skillful means:




                        “O sons of a virtuous family! If any sentient being comes to me, I
                        perceive the dullness or sharpness of his faith and other faculties
                        with my buddhaeye. According to the way I should bring them to the
                        path, I, myself, proclaim different names and lifespans in various
                        places.
                        In each case I have also clearly stated that I would enter
                        parinirvāṇa. Through various skillful means I have explained
                        subtle teachings and have made the sentient beings rejoice.



                        “O sons of a virtuous family! To those beings whom the Tathāgata
                        perceives as taking pleasure in the inferior teachings, who have few
                        qualities and grave defilements, he teaches that the Buddha attained
                        highest, complete enlightenment after he renounced household life in
                        his young age. However, it has been a very long time indeed since I
                        attained buddhahood.
                        I give such an explanation only to lead and
                        inspire the sentient beings to enter the buddha path through skillful
                        means.




                        Don't think for even a moment that the Buddha has spoken falsely. Everything he does is out of compassion for sentient beings. If your house was on fire and your kids refusing to budge you would use skillful means to lure them out of compassion. This would be a skillful and completely virtuous act without even an ounce of negativity. Listen to Shakyamuni:




                        “O sons of a virtuous family! The sutras that the Tathāgata has
                        expounded are all to save the sentient beings. Whether the Tathāgata
                        teaches about himself or others, whether he reveals his form or that
                        of others, whether he shows his acts or those of others, everything he
                        says is true, never false.
                        “Why is this? Because the Tathāgata
                        perceives all the marks of the triple world as they really are: that
                        there is no birth and death, coming or going; that there is also no
                        existence or extinction in the world, truth or falsehood, sameness or
                        difference. The Tathāgata does not view the triple world as sentient
                        beings in the triple world see it. The Tathāgata perceives such things
                        clearly and without mistakes.



                        “Since sentient beings have various natures, desires, behaviors,
                        thoughts, and distinctions, the Tathāgata, wanting to cause them to
                        plant roots of good merit, has explained various teachings through a
                        variety of examples, explanations, and illustrations. He has not
                        desisted from doing buddha acts even for a single moment and in this
                        way it has been an extremely long time since I attained buddhahood. My
                        lifespan is immeasurable and incalculable. I abide forever without
                        entering parinirvāṇa.




                        All emphasis is my own. Please read the Lotus Sutra and understand.



                        Hope this helps!







                        share|improve this answer















                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer








                        edited Aug 8 at 14:44


























                        answered Aug 7 at 18:27









                        Yeshe Tenley

                        1,222121




                        1,222121











                        • Do you have sources for this?
                          – ruben2020
                          Aug 8 at 5:26










                        • Yeshe, this is probably a mahayanan source you're referring to, isn't it?
                          – Val
                          Aug 8 at 6:28











                        • @Val I think the story you referenced is found in (or from) the (introduction to the) Jataka Tales, which, tell of the previous lives of the Buddha (or Bodhisattva)
                          – ChrisW♦
                          Aug 8 at 8:07










                        • @ruben2020 are you looking for original sutra/tantra sources? Or is the new link above adequate?
                          – Yeshe Tenley
                          Aug 8 at 14:02










                        • @Val yes, I am giving the answer from the Mahayana viewpoint which differs from Theravada on this question
                          – Yeshe Tenley
                          Aug 8 at 14:03
















                        • Do you have sources for this?
                          – ruben2020
                          Aug 8 at 5:26










                        • Yeshe, this is probably a mahayanan source you're referring to, isn't it?
                          – Val
                          Aug 8 at 6:28











                        • @Val I think the story you referenced is found in (or from) the (introduction to the) Jataka Tales, which, tell of the previous lives of the Buddha (or Bodhisattva)
                          – ChrisW♦
                          Aug 8 at 8:07










                        • @ruben2020 are you looking for original sutra/tantra sources? Or is the new link above adequate?
                          – Yeshe Tenley
                          Aug 8 at 14:02










                        • @Val yes, I am giving the answer from the Mahayana viewpoint which differs from Theravada on this question
                          – Yeshe Tenley
                          Aug 8 at 14:03















                        Do you have sources for this?
                        – ruben2020
                        Aug 8 at 5:26




                        Do you have sources for this?
                        – ruben2020
                        Aug 8 at 5:26












                        Yeshe, this is probably a mahayanan source you're referring to, isn't it?
                        – Val
                        Aug 8 at 6:28





                        Yeshe, this is probably a mahayanan source you're referring to, isn't it?
                        – Val
                        Aug 8 at 6:28













                        @Val I think the story you referenced is found in (or from) the (introduction to the) Jataka Tales, which, tell of the previous lives of the Buddha (or Bodhisattva)
                        – ChrisW♦
                        Aug 8 at 8:07




                        @Val I think the story you referenced is found in (or from) the (introduction to the) Jataka Tales, which, tell of the previous lives of the Buddha (or Bodhisattva)
                        – ChrisW♦
                        Aug 8 at 8:07












                        @ruben2020 are you looking for original sutra/tantra sources? Or is the new link above adequate?
                        – Yeshe Tenley
                        Aug 8 at 14:02




                        @ruben2020 are you looking for original sutra/tantra sources? Or is the new link above adequate?
                        – Yeshe Tenley
                        Aug 8 at 14:02












                        @Val yes, I am giving the answer from the Mahayana viewpoint which differs from Theravada on this question
                        – Yeshe Tenley
                        Aug 8 at 14:03




                        @Val yes, I am giving the answer from the Mahayana viewpoint which differs from Theravada on this question
                        – Yeshe Tenley
                        Aug 8 at 14:03










                        up vote
                        0
                        down vote













                        From what I was thought path to samma sambuddha is not in stages like that of an aharath. He reach buddhahood within a single moment. Untill that moment he would be vulnerable.



                        But on the other hand you could argue that he was never vulnerable, as from the point another Buddha declared that he will become a Buddha, he is destined to get there.



                        Also about mara, mara has multiple meanings. One is your own inmer devils, other is there exist a being/a role played by a being. So that being would not know if he was vulnarable or not.






                        share|improve this answer



























                          up vote
                          0
                          down vote













                          From what I was thought path to samma sambuddha is not in stages like that of an aharath. He reach buddhahood within a single moment. Untill that moment he would be vulnerable.



                          But on the other hand you could argue that he was never vulnerable, as from the point another Buddha declared that he will become a Buddha, he is destined to get there.



                          Also about mara, mara has multiple meanings. One is your own inmer devils, other is there exist a being/a role played by a being. So that being would not know if he was vulnarable or not.






                          share|improve this answer

























                            up vote
                            0
                            down vote










                            up vote
                            0
                            down vote









                            From what I was thought path to samma sambuddha is not in stages like that of an aharath. He reach buddhahood within a single moment. Untill that moment he would be vulnerable.



                            But on the other hand you could argue that he was never vulnerable, as from the point another Buddha declared that he will become a Buddha, he is destined to get there.



                            Also about mara, mara has multiple meanings. One is your own inmer devils, other is there exist a being/a role played by a being. So that being would not know if he was vulnarable or not.






                            share|improve this answer















                            From what I was thought path to samma sambuddha is not in stages like that of an aharath. He reach buddhahood within a single moment. Untill that moment he would be vulnerable.



                            But on the other hand you could argue that he was never vulnerable, as from the point another Buddha declared that he will become a Buddha, he is destined to get there.



                            Also about mara, mara has multiple meanings. One is your own inmer devils, other is there exist a being/a role played by a being. So that being would not know if he was vulnarable or not.







                            share|improve this answer















                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited Aug 10 at 15:26









                            RBK

                            335




                            335











                            answered Aug 7 at 15:15









                            RRR

                            1877




                            1877






















                                 

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