A linear algebra problem in positive characteristic

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Let $A$ be a symmetric square matrix with entries in $mathbbZ/pmathbbZ$ for a prime $p$ such that all of its diagonal entries are nonzero. Does there exists always a vector $x$ with all coordinates nonzero in the image of $A$? (this is true for $p=2$, but I don't know the answer for other values of $p$)







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  • 7




    I suppose you mean "with all coordinates non-zero"?
    – Geoff Robinson
    Aug 7 at 16:13










  • @GeoffRobinson Yes, I edited the question.
    – Mostafa
    Aug 7 at 19:34














up vote
17
down vote

favorite












Let $A$ be a symmetric square matrix with entries in $mathbbZ/pmathbbZ$ for a prime $p$ such that all of its diagonal entries are nonzero. Does there exists always a vector $x$ with all coordinates nonzero in the image of $A$? (this is true for $p=2$, but I don't know the answer for other values of $p$)







share|cite|improve this question

















  • 7




    I suppose you mean "with all coordinates non-zero"?
    – Geoff Robinson
    Aug 7 at 16:13










  • @GeoffRobinson Yes, I edited the question.
    – Mostafa
    Aug 7 at 19:34












up vote
17
down vote

favorite









up vote
17
down vote

favorite











Let $A$ be a symmetric square matrix with entries in $mathbbZ/pmathbbZ$ for a prime $p$ such that all of its diagonal entries are nonzero. Does there exists always a vector $x$ with all coordinates nonzero in the image of $A$? (this is true for $p=2$, but I don't know the answer for other values of $p$)







share|cite|improve this question













Let $A$ be a symmetric square matrix with entries in $mathbbZ/pmathbbZ$ for a prime $p$ such that all of its diagonal entries are nonzero. Does there exists always a vector $x$ with all coordinates nonzero in the image of $A$? (this is true for $p=2$, but I don't know the answer for other values of $p$)









share|cite|improve this question












share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Aug 7 at 19:35
























asked Aug 7 at 15:17









Mostafa

1,93511126




1,93511126







  • 7




    I suppose you mean "with all coordinates non-zero"?
    – Geoff Robinson
    Aug 7 at 16:13










  • @GeoffRobinson Yes, I edited the question.
    – Mostafa
    Aug 7 at 19:34












  • 7




    I suppose you mean "with all coordinates non-zero"?
    – Geoff Robinson
    Aug 7 at 16:13










  • @GeoffRobinson Yes, I edited the question.
    – Mostafa
    Aug 7 at 19:34







7




7




I suppose you mean "with all coordinates non-zero"?
– Geoff Robinson
Aug 7 at 16:13




I suppose you mean "with all coordinates non-zero"?
– Geoff Robinson
Aug 7 at 16:13












@GeoffRobinson Yes, I edited the question.
– Mostafa
Aug 7 at 19:34




@GeoffRobinson Yes, I edited the question.
– Mostafa
Aug 7 at 19:34










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
28
down vote



accepted










This is false. Let $c$ be a quadratic nonresidue modulo $p$. Our matrix will be $(p^2-1) times (p^2-1)$, with rows and colums indexed by pairs $(x,y) in mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) $.



Our matrix is defined by
$$A_(x_1,y_1) (x_2, y_2) = x_1 x_2 - c y_1 y_2.$$
This is obviously symmetric. Since $c$ is a nonresidue, we have $x^2-cy^2 neq 0$ for $(x,y) in mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) $, so the diagonal entries are nonzero.



Each column of this matrix is a linear function of $(x,y)$. So every vector in the image of this matrix is a linear function $mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) longrightarrow mathbbF_p$ and, hence, takes the value $0$ somewhere.



We could make a smaller $(p+1) times (p+1)$ example by just taking one point $(x,y)$ on each line through $0$ in $mathbbF_p^2$.




Moreover, I claim that $(p+1) times (p+1)$ is optimal. In other words, if $A$ is an $n times n$ matrix with $n leq p$ and nonzero entries on the diagonal, then some vector in the image of $A$ has all coordinates nonzero. Interestingly, I don't need the symmetry hypothesis.



Let $W$ be the image of $A$. Note that $W$ is not contained in any of the coordinate hyperplanes.



Let $vecu= (u_1, u_2, ldots, u_n)$, among all elements of $W$, have the fewest $0$ entries. Suppose for the sake of contradiction that some $u_i$ is $0$. Then there is some other $vecv$ in $W$ with $v_i neq 0$. Consider the points $(u_j : v_j)$ in $mathbbP^1(mathbbF_p)$ as $j$ ranges over all indices where $(u_j, v_j) neq (0,0)$. There are fewer then $p+1$ such $j$, so some point of $mathbbP^1(mathbbF_p)$ is not hit, call it $(a:b)$. Then $-b vecu + a vecv$ is in $W$ and has fewer nonzero entries than $vecu$, a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • This is a beautiful answer, and especially great because it works for any $p > 2$.
    – R. van Dobben de Bruyn
    Aug 7 at 17:22











  • It makes me curious whether there are counterexample matrices of size $leq p$, though.
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 18:25






  • 1




    I am getting the impression that a Combinatorial Nullstellensatz / Chevalley-Warning argument could work here; any ideas?
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 19:11






  • 1




    Ah, it's easier than that. Assume that no row of $A$ is $0$. (This is weaker than assuming that no diagonal entry of $A$ is $0$.) Consider the homogeneous polynomial $P = prodlimits_i=1^n left(sumlimits_j=1^n a_i,j X_jright) in mathbbF_pleft[X_1, X_2, ldots, X_nright]$. Then, $P neq 0$. But the degree $deg P = n leq p$ of $P$ is small enough that homogeneous polynomials still behave like polynomial functions in this degree (indeed, they do it all the way until degree $p+1$); thus, $P neq 0$ as a polynomial function too. In other words, there exists ...
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 19:21






  • 1




    The second part also follows by simply counting: the condition that $(Ax)_jnot= 0$ rules out $p^n-1$ vectors, so after considering all conditions, we have at least $p^n-np^n-1$ vectors left, which is $ge 0$ if $nle p$ (and of course there's overlap, so $n=p$ is fine too).
    – Christian Remling
    Aug 9 at 15:09











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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
28
down vote



accepted










This is false. Let $c$ be a quadratic nonresidue modulo $p$. Our matrix will be $(p^2-1) times (p^2-1)$, with rows and colums indexed by pairs $(x,y) in mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) $.



Our matrix is defined by
$$A_(x_1,y_1) (x_2, y_2) = x_1 x_2 - c y_1 y_2.$$
This is obviously symmetric. Since $c$ is a nonresidue, we have $x^2-cy^2 neq 0$ for $(x,y) in mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) $, so the diagonal entries are nonzero.



Each column of this matrix is a linear function of $(x,y)$. So every vector in the image of this matrix is a linear function $mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) longrightarrow mathbbF_p$ and, hence, takes the value $0$ somewhere.



We could make a smaller $(p+1) times (p+1)$ example by just taking one point $(x,y)$ on each line through $0$ in $mathbbF_p^2$.




Moreover, I claim that $(p+1) times (p+1)$ is optimal. In other words, if $A$ is an $n times n$ matrix with $n leq p$ and nonzero entries on the diagonal, then some vector in the image of $A$ has all coordinates nonzero. Interestingly, I don't need the symmetry hypothesis.



Let $W$ be the image of $A$. Note that $W$ is not contained in any of the coordinate hyperplanes.



Let $vecu= (u_1, u_2, ldots, u_n)$, among all elements of $W$, have the fewest $0$ entries. Suppose for the sake of contradiction that some $u_i$ is $0$. Then there is some other $vecv$ in $W$ with $v_i neq 0$. Consider the points $(u_j : v_j)$ in $mathbbP^1(mathbbF_p)$ as $j$ ranges over all indices where $(u_j, v_j) neq (0,0)$. There are fewer then $p+1$ such $j$, so some point of $mathbbP^1(mathbbF_p)$ is not hit, call it $(a:b)$. Then $-b vecu + a vecv$ is in $W$ and has fewer nonzero entries than $vecu$, a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • This is a beautiful answer, and especially great because it works for any $p > 2$.
    – R. van Dobben de Bruyn
    Aug 7 at 17:22











  • It makes me curious whether there are counterexample matrices of size $leq p$, though.
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 18:25






  • 1




    I am getting the impression that a Combinatorial Nullstellensatz / Chevalley-Warning argument could work here; any ideas?
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 19:11






  • 1




    Ah, it's easier than that. Assume that no row of $A$ is $0$. (This is weaker than assuming that no diagonal entry of $A$ is $0$.) Consider the homogeneous polynomial $P = prodlimits_i=1^n left(sumlimits_j=1^n a_i,j X_jright) in mathbbF_pleft[X_1, X_2, ldots, X_nright]$. Then, $P neq 0$. But the degree $deg P = n leq p$ of $P$ is small enough that homogeneous polynomials still behave like polynomial functions in this degree (indeed, they do it all the way until degree $p+1$); thus, $P neq 0$ as a polynomial function too. In other words, there exists ...
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 19:21






  • 1




    The second part also follows by simply counting: the condition that $(Ax)_jnot= 0$ rules out $p^n-1$ vectors, so after considering all conditions, we have at least $p^n-np^n-1$ vectors left, which is $ge 0$ if $nle p$ (and of course there's overlap, so $n=p$ is fine too).
    – Christian Remling
    Aug 9 at 15:09















up vote
28
down vote



accepted










This is false. Let $c$ be a quadratic nonresidue modulo $p$. Our matrix will be $(p^2-1) times (p^2-1)$, with rows and colums indexed by pairs $(x,y) in mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) $.



Our matrix is defined by
$$A_(x_1,y_1) (x_2, y_2) = x_1 x_2 - c y_1 y_2.$$
This is obviously symmetric. Since $c$ is a nonresidue, we have $x^2-cy^2 neq 0$ for $(x,y) in mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) $, so the diagonal entries are nonzero.



Each column of this matrix is a linear function of $(x,y)$. So every vector in the image of this matrix is a linear function $mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) longrightarrow mathbbF_p$ and, hence, takes the value $0$ somewhere.



We could make a smaller $(p+1) times (p+1)$ example by just taking one point $(x,y)$ on each line through $0$ in $mathbbF_p^2$.




Moreover, I claim that $(p+1) times (p+1)$ is optimal. In other words, if $A$ is an $n times n$ matrix with $n leq p$ and nonzero entries on the diagonal, then some vector in the image of $A$ has all coordinates nonzero. Interestingly, I don't need the symmetry hypothesis.



Let $W$ be the image of $A$. Note that $W$ is not contained in any of the coordinate hyperplanes.



Let $vecu= (u_1, u_2, ldots, u_n)$, among all elements of $W$, have the fewest $0$ entries. Suppose for the sake of contradiction that some $u_i$ is $0$. Then there is some other $vecv$ in $W$ with $v_i neq 0$. Consider the points $(u_j : v_j)$ in $mathbbP^1(mathbbF_p)$ as $j$ ranges over all indices where $(u_j, v_j) neq (0,0)$. There are fewer then $p+1$ such $j$, so some point of $mathbbP^1(mathbbF_p)$ is not hit, call it $(a:b)$. Then $-b vecu + a vecv$ is in $W$ and has fewer nonzero entries than $vecu$, a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • This is a beautiful answer, and especially great because it works for any $p > 2$.
    – R. van Dobben de Bruyn
    Aug 7 at 17:22











  • It makes me curious whether there are counterexample matrices of size $leq p$, though.
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 18:25






  • 1




    I am getting the impression that a Combinatorial Nullstellensatz / Chevalley-Warning argument could work here; any ideas?
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 19:11






  • 1




    Ah, it's easier than that. Assume that no row of $A$ is $0$. (This is weaker than assuming that no diagonal entry of $A$ is $0$.) Consider the homogeneous polynomial $P = prodlimits_i=1^n left(sumlimits_j=1^n a_i,j X_jright) in mathbbF_pleft[X_1, X_2, ldots, X_nright]$. Then, $P neq 0$. But the degree $deg P = n leq p$ of $P$ is small enough that homogeneous polynomials still behave like polynomial functions in this degree (indeed, they do it all the way until degree $p+1$); thus, $P neq 0$ as a polynomial function too. In other words, there exists ...
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 19:21






  • 1




    The second part also follows by simply counting: the condition that $(Ax)_jnot= 0$ rules out $p^n-1$ vectors, so after considering all conditions, we have at least $p^n-np^n-1$ vectors left, which is $ge 0$ if $nle p$ (and of course there's overlap, so $n=p$ is fine too).
    – Christian Remling
    Aug 9 at 15:09













up vote
28
down vote



accepted







up vote
28
down vote



accepted






This is false. Let $c$ be a quadratic nonresidue modulo $p$. Our matrix will be $(p^2-1) times (p^2-1)$, with rows and colums indexed by pairs $(x,y) in mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) $.



Our matrix is defined by
$$A_(x_1,y_1) (x_2, y_2) = x_1 x_2 - c y_1 y_2.$$
This is obviously symmetric. Since $c$ is a nonresidue, we have $x^2-cy^2 neq 0$ for $(x,y) in mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) $, so the diagonal entries are nonzero.



Each column of this matrix is a linear function of $(x,y)$. So every vector in the image of this matrix is a linear function $mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) longrightarrow mathbbF_p$ and, hence, takes the value $0$ somewhere.



We could make a smaller $(p+1) times (p+1)$ example by just taking one point $(x,y)$ on each line through $0$ in $mathbbF_p^2$.




Moreover, I claim that $(p+1) times (p+1)$ is optimal. In other words, if $A$ is an $n times n$ matrix with $n leq p$ and nonzero entries on the diagonal, then some vector in the image of $A$ has all coordinates nonzero. Interestingly, I don't need the symmetry hypothesis.



Let $W$ be the image of $A$. Note that $W$ is not contained in any of the coordinate hyperplanes.



Let $vecu= (u_1, u_2, ldots, u_n)$, among all elements of $W$, have the fewest $0$ entries. Suppose for the sake of contradiction that some $u_i$ is $0$. Then there is some other $vecv$ in $W$ with $v_i neq 0$. Consider the points $(u_j : v_j)$ in $mathbbP^1(mathbbF_p)$ as $j$ ranges over all indices where $(u_j, v_j) neq (0,0)$. There are fewer then $p+1$ such $j$, so some point of $mathbbP^1(mathbbF_p)$ is not hit, call it $(a:b)$. Then $-b vecu + a vecv$ is in $W$ and has fewer nonzero entries than $vecu$, a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer















This is false. Let $c$ be a quadratic nonresidue modulo $p$. Our matrix will be $(p^2-1) times (p^2-1)$, with rows and colums indexed by pairs $(x,y) in mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) $.



Our matrix is defined by
$$A_(x_1,y_1) (x_2, y_2) = x_1 x_2 - c y_1 y_2.$$
This is obviously symmetric. Since $c$ is a nonresidue, we have $x^2-cy^2 neq 0$ for $(x,y) in mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) $, so the diagonal entries are nonzero.



Each column of this matrix is a linear function of $(x,y)$. So every vector in the image of this matrix is a linear function $mathbbF_p^2 setminus (0,0) longrightarrow mathbbF_p$ and, hence, takes the value $0$ somewhere.



We could make a smaller $(p+1) times (p+1)$ example by just taking one point $(x,y)$ on each line through $0$ in $mathbbF_p^2$.




Moreover, I claim that $(p+1) times (p+1)$ is optimal. In other words, if $A$ is an $n times n$ matrix with $n leq p$ and nonzero entries on the diagonal, then some vector in the image of $A$ has all coordinates nonzero. Interestingly, I don't need the symmetry hypothesis.



Let $W$ be the image of $A$. Note that $W$ is not contained in any of the coordinate hyperplanes.



Let $vecu= (u_1, u_2, ldots, u_n)$, among all elements of $W$, have the fewest $0$ entries. Suppose for the sake of contradiction that some $u_i$ is $0$. Then there is some other $vecv$ in $W$ with $v_i neq 0$. Consider the points $(u_j : v_j)$ in $mathbbP^1(mathbbF_p)$ as $j$ ranges over all indices where $(u_j, v_j) neq (0,0)$. There are fewer then $p+1$ such $j$, so some point of $mathbbP^1(mathbbF_p)$ is not hit, call it $(a:b)$. Then $-b vecu + a vecv$ is in $W$ and has fewer nonzero entries than $vecu$, a contradiction.







share|cite|improve this answer















share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Aug 7 at 23:49


























answered Aug 7 at 16:17









David E Speyer

103k8260524




103k8260524











  • This is a beautiful answer, and especially great because it works for any $p > 2$.
    – R. van Dobben de Bruyn
    Aug 7 at 17:22











  • It makes me curious whether there are counterexample matrices of size $leq p$, though.
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 18:25






  • 1




    I am getting the impression that a Combinatorial Nullstellensatz / Chevalley-Warning argument could work here; any ideas?
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 19:11






  • 1




    Ah, it's easier than that. Assume that no row of $A$ is $0$. (This is weaker than assuming that no diagonal entry of $A$ is $0$.) Consider the homogeneous polynomial $P = prodlimits_i=1^n left(sumlimits_j=1^n a_i,j X_jright) in mathbbF_pleft[X_1, X_2, ldots, X_nright]$. Then, $P neq 0$. But the degree $deg P = n leq p$ of $P$ is small enough that homogeneous polynomials still behave like polynomial functions in this degree (indeed, they do it all the way until degree $p+1$); thus, $P neq 0$ as a polynomial function too. In other words, there exists ...
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 19:21






  • 1




    The second part also follows by simply counting: the condition that $(Ax)_jnot= 0$ rules out $p^n-1$ vectors, so after considering all conditions, we have at least $p^n-np^n-1$ vectors left, which is $ge 0$ if $nle p$ (and of course there's overlap, so $n=p$ is fine too).
    – Christian Remling
    Aug 9 at 15:09

















  • This is a beautiful answer, and especially great because it works for any $p > 2$.
    – R. van Dobben de Bruyn
    Aug 7 at 17:22











  • It makes me curious whether there are counterexample matrices of size $leq p$, though.
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 18:25






  • 1




    I am getting the impression that a Combinatorial Nullstellensatz / Chevalley-Warning argument could work here; any ideas?
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 19:11






  • 1




    Ah, it's easier than that. Assume that no row of $A$ is $0$. (This is weaker than assuming that no diagonal entry of $A$ is $0$.) Consider the homogeneous polynomial $P = prodlimits_i=1^n left(sumlimits_j=1^n a_i,j X_jright) in mathbbF_pleft[X_1, X_2, ldots, X_nright]$. Then, $P neq 0$. But the degree $deg P = n leq p$ of $P$ is small enough that homogeneous polynomials still behave like polynomial functions in this degree (indeed, they do it all the way until degree $p+1$); thus, $P neq 0$ as a polynomial function too. In other words, there exists ...
    – darij grinberg
    Aug 7 at 19:21






  • 1




    The second part also follows by simply counting: the condition that $(Ax)_jnot= 0$ rules out $p^n-1$ vectors, so after considering all conditions, we have at least $p^n-np^n-1$ vectors left, which is $ge 0$ if $nle p$ (and of course there's overlap, so $n=p$ is fine too).
    – Christian Remling
    Aug 9 at 15:09
















This is a beautiful answer, and especially great because it works for any $p > 2$.
– R. van Dobben de Bruyn
Aug 7 at 17:22





This is a beautiful answer, and especially great because it works for any $p > 2$.
– R. van Dobben de Bruyn
Aug 7 at 17:22













It makes me curious whether there are counterexample matrices of size $leq p$, though.
– darij grinberg
Aug 7 at 18:25




It makes me curious whether there are counterexample matrices of size $leq p$, though.
– darij grinberg
Aug 7 at 18:25




1




1




I am getting the impression that a Combinatorial Nullstellensatz / Chevalley-Warning argument could work here; any ideas?
– darij grinberg
Aug 7 at 19:11




I am getting the impression that a Combinatorial Nullstellensatz / Chevalley-Warning argument could work here; any ideas?
– darij grinberg
Aug 7 at 19:11




1




1




Ah, it's easier than that. Assume that no row of $A$ is $0$. (This is weaker than assuming that no diagonal entry of $A$ is $0$.) Consider the homogeneous polynomial $P = prodlimits_i=1^n left(sumlimits_j=1^n a_i,j X_jright) in mathbbF_pleft[X_1, X_2, ldots, X_nright]$. Then, $P neq 0$. But the degree $deg P = n leq p$ of $P$ is small enough that homogeneous polynomials still behave like polynomial functions in this degree (indeed, they do it all the way until degree $p+1$); thus, $P neq 0$ as a polynomial function too. In other words, there exists ...
– darij grinberg
Aug 7 at 19:21




Ah, it's easier than that. Assume that no row of $A$ is $0$. (This is weaker than assuming that no diagonal entry of $A$ is $0$.) Consider the homogeneous polynomial $P = prodlimits_i=1^n left(sumlimits_j=1^n a_i,j X_jright) in mathbbF_pleft[X_1, X_2, ldots, X_nright]$. Then, $P neq 0$. But the degree $deg P = n leq p$ of $P$ is small enough that homogeneous polynomials still behave like polynomial functions in this degree (indeed, they do it all the way until degree $p+1$); thus, $P neq 0$ as a polynomial function too. In other words, there exists ...
– darij grinberg
Aug 7 at 19:21




1




1




The second part also follows by simply counting: the condition that $(Ax)_jnot= 0$ rules out $p^n-1$ vectors, so after considering all conditions, we have at least $p^n-np^n-1$ vectors left, which is $ge 0$ if $nle p$ (and of course there's overlap, so $n=p$ is fine too).
– Christian Remling
Aug 9 at 15:09





The second part also follows by simply counting: the condition that $(Ax)_jnot= 0$ rules out $p^n-1$ vectors, so after considering all conditions, we have at least $p^n-np^n-1$ vectors left, which is $ge 0$ if $nle p$ (and of course there's overlap, so $n=p$ is fine too).
– Christian Remling
Aug 9 at 15:09













 

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