Rolle's theorem: what's the right statement of the theorem?

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In the fourth edition of "Introduction to Real Analysis" by Bartle and Sherbert, theorem 6.2.3 (Rolle's theorem) states,




Suppose that f is continuous on a closed interval $I := [a, b]$, that
the derivative of $f$ exists at every point of the open interval $(a, b)$, and that $f(a) = f(b) = 0$.
Then there exists at least one point $c$ in $(a, b)$ such that the derivative of $f$ is zero at $c$.




Now, why are we taking $f(a)=0=f(b)$? Is $f(a)=f(b)$ not sufficient?







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  • If by 'right statement' you mean 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero.
    – smci
    7 hours ago















up vote
7
down vote

favorite
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In the fourth edition of "Introduction to Real Analysis" by Bartle and Sherbert, theorem 6.2.3 (Rolle's theorem) states,




Suppose that f is continuous on a closed interval $I := [a, b]$, that
the derivative of $f$ exists at every point of the open interval $(a, b)$, and that $f(a) = f(b) = 0$.
Then there exists at least one point $c$ in $(a, b)$ such that the derivative of $f$ is zero at $c$.




Now, why are we taking $f(a)=0=f(b)$? Is $f(a)=f(b)$ not sufficient?







share|cite|improve this question

















  • 1




    Welcome to MSE. For some basic information about writing mathematics at this site see, e.g., basic help on mathjax notation, mathjax tutorial and quick reference, main meta site math tutorial and equation editing how-to.
    – José Carlos Santos
    yesterday










  • If by 'right statement' you mean 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero.
    – smci
    7 hours ago













up vote
7
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
7
down vote

favorite
1






1





In the fourth edition of "Introduction to Real Analysis" by Bartle and Sherbert, theorem 6.2.3 (Rolle's theorem) states,




Suppose that f is continuous on a closed interval $I := [a, b]$, that
the derivative of $f$ exists at every point of the open interval $(a, b)$, and that $f(a) = f(b) = 0$.
Then there exists at least one point $c$ in $(a, b)$ such that the derivative of $f$ is zero at $c$.




Now, why are we taking $f(a)=0=f(b)$? Is $f(a)=f(b)$ not sufficient?







share|cite|improve this question













In the fourth edition of "Introduction to Real Analysis" by Bartle and Sherbert, theorem 6.2.3 (Rolle's theorem) states,




Suppose that f is continuous on a closed interval $I := [a, b]$, that
the derivative of $f$ exists at every point of the open interval $(a, b)$, and that $f(a) = f(b) = 0$.
Then there exists at least one point $c$ in $(a, b)$ such that the derivative of $f$ is zero at $c$.




Now, why are we taking $f(a)=0=f(b)$? Is $f(a)=f(b)$ not sufficient?









share|cite|improve this question












share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited yesterday









Brahadeesh

3,21231143




3,21231143









asked yesterday









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384







  • 1




    Welcome to MSE. For some basic information about writing mathematics at this site see, e.g., basic help on mathjax notation, mathjax tutorial and quick reference, main meta site math tutorial and equation editing how-to.
    – José Carlos Santos
    yesterday










  • If by 'right statement' you mean 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero.
    – smci
    7 hours ago













  • 1




    Welcome to MSE. For some basic information about writing mathematics at this site see, e.g., basic help on mathjax notation, mathjax tutorial and quick reference, main meta site math tutorial and equation editing how-to.
    – José Carlos Santos
    yesterday










  • If by 'right statement' you mean 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero.
    – smci
    7 hours ago








1




1




Welcome to MSE. For some basic information about writing mathematics at this site see, e.g., basic help on mathjax notation, mathjax tutorial and quick reference, main meta site math tutorial and equation editing how-to.
– José Carlos Santos
yesterday




Welcome to MSE. For some basic information about writing mathematics at this site see, e.g., basic help on mathjax notation, mathjax tutorial and quick reference, main meta site math tutorial and equation editing how-to.
– José Carlos Santos
yesterday












If by 'right statement' you mean 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero.
– smci
7 hours ago





If by 'right statement' you mean 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero.
– smci
7 hours ago











3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
9
down vote



accepted










You are right, taking $f(a) = f(b)$ is sufficient.



But, one can prove the theorem in this general scenario using the theorem for the case $f(a) = 0 = f(b)$, as follows:



Assume Rolle's theorem as stated in the question details is true. Let $f$ be a function satisfying the same hypotheses, except that $f(a) = f(b) = k$, where $k$ is not necessarily equal to zero. Then, the function $g(x) = f(x) - k$ satisfies the hypotheses of Rolle's theorem, and so there is a point $c$ such that $g'(c) = 0$. But $g'(c) = f'(c)$, so we are done.



So, it doesn't really matter which one we use, as both versions are seen to be equivalent to each other.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • If by 'right statement' OP means 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero. Better to state in the more general. And Rolle's Theorem not always about roots (f(a)=f(b)=0). The version I was taught was simply a formalization that between two points with equal y-value, there is a peak with zero derivative.
    – smci
    7 hours ago










  • This could be an answer on its own.
    – Brahadeesh
    3 hours ago

















up vote
8
down vote













Yes, you are right: $f(a)=f(b)$ is enough. However, it is usual to add the condition $=0$ after $f(a)=f(b)$ so that the theorem becomes: between two roots of $f$, there's a root of $f'$, which is the original theorem due Michel Rolle (who stated it for polynomials only).



Anyway, this is a moot point, since both statements are just a particular case of the Mean Value Theorem.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thank you. It was really helpful.
    – U Know me
    yesterday










  • I'm glad I could help.
    – José Carlos Santos
    yesterday






  • 3




    OTOH, the usual way to prove the Mean Value Theorem is by applying the theorem of Rolle. Depending on how much one 'groks' working with derivatives, the step from the general ($f(a) = f(b)$ but not necessarily $=0$) version of Rolle to the Mean Value Theorem is not much bigger than from the "$f(a) = f(b)=0$" version of Rolle to the general one.
    – Ingix
    yesterday






  • 2




    +1 for the history of these theorems.
    – Paramanand Singh
    yesterday

















up vote
4
down vote













The two versions are clearly equivalent. Suppose just $f(a)=f(b)$. Let $g(t)=f(t)-f(a)$. Then $g(a)=g(b)=0$, so the formally weaker version shows $g'(c)=0$, hence $f'(c)=0$ for some $c$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    9
    down vote



    accepted










    You are right, taking $f(a) = f(b)$ is sufficient.



    But, one can prove the theorem in this general scenario using the theorem for the case $f(a) = 0 = f(b)$, as follows:



    Assume Rolle's theorem as stated in the question details is true. Let $f$ be a function satisfying the same hypotheses, except that $f(a) = f(b) = k$, where $k$ is not necessarily equal to zero. Then, the function $g(x) = f(x) - k$ satisfies the hypotheses of Rolle's theorem, and so there is a point $c$ such that $g'(c) = 0$. But $g'(c) = f'(c)$, so we are done.



    So, it doesn't really matter which one we use, as both versions are seen to be equivalent to each other.






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • If by 'right statement' OP means 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero. Better to state in the more general. And Rolle's Theorem not always about roots (f(a)=f(b)=0). The version I was taught was simply a formalization that between two points with equal y-value, there is a peak with zero derivative.
      – smci
      7 hours ago










    • This could be an answer on its own.
      – Brahadeesh
      3 hours ago














    up vote
    9
    down vote



    accepted










    You are right, taking $f(a) = f(b)$ is sufficient.



    But, one can prove the theorem in this general scenario using the theorem for the case $f(a) = 0 = f(b)$, as follows:



    Assume Rolle's theorem as stated in the question details is true. Let $f$ be a function satisfying the same hypotheses, except that $f(a) = f(b) = k$, where $k$ is not necessarily equal to zero. Then, the function $g(x) = f(x) - k$ satisfies the hypotheses of Rolle's theorem, and so there is a point $c$ such that $g'(c) = 0$. But $g'(c) = f'(c)$, so we are done.



    So, it doesn't really matter which one we use, as both versions are seen to be equivalent to each other.






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • If by 'right statement' OP means 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero. Better to state in the more general. And Rolle's Theorem not always about roots (f(a)=f(b)=0). The version I was taught was simply a formalization that between two points with equal y-value, there is a peak with zero derivative.
      – smci
      7 hours ago










    • This could be an answer on its own.
      – Brahadeesh
      3 hours ago












    up vote
    9
    down vote



    accepted







    up vote
    9
    down vote



    accepted






    You are right, taking $f(a) = f(b)$ is sufficient.



    But, one can prove the theorem in this general scenario using the theorem for the case $f(a) = 0 = f(b)$, as follows:



    Assume Rolle's theorem as stated in the question details is true. Let $f$ be a function satisfying the same hypotheses, except that $f(a) = f(b) = k$, where $k$ is not necessarily equal to zero. Then, the function $g(x) = f(x) - k$ satisfies the hypotheses of Rolle's theorem, and so there is a point $c$ such that $g'(c) = 0$. But $g'(c) = f'(c)$, so we are done.



    So, it doesn't really matter which one we use, as both versions are seen to be equivalent to each other.






    share|cite|improve this answer















    You are right, taking $f(a) = f(b)$ is sufficient.



    But, one can prove the theorem in this general scenario using the theorem for the case $f(a) = 0 = f(b)$, as follows:



    Assume Rolle's theorem as stated in the question details is true. Let $f$ be a function satisfying the same hypotheses, except that $f(a) = f(b) = k$, where $k$ is not necessarily equal to zero. Then, the function $g(x) = f(x) - k$ satisfies the hypotheses of Rolle's theorem, and so there is a point $c$ such that $g'(c) = 0$. But $g'(c) = f'(c)$, so we are done.



    So, it doesn't really matter which one we use, as both versions are seen to be equivalent to each other.







    share|cite|improve this answer















    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited yesterday


























    answered yesterday









    Brahadeesh

    3,21231143




    3,21231143











    • If by 'right statement' OP means 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero. Better to state in the more general. And Rolle's Theorem not always about roots (f(a)=f(b)=0). The version I was taught was simply a formalization that between two points with equal y-value, there is a peak with zero derivative.
      – smci
      7 hours ago










    • This could be an answer on its own.
      – Brahadeesh
      3 hours ago
















    • If by 'right statement' OP means 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero. Better to state in the more general. And Rolle's Theorem not always about roots (f(a)=f(b)=0). The version I was taught was simply a formalization that between two points with equal y-value, there is a peak with zero derivative.
      – smci
      7 hours ago










    • This could be an answer on its own.
      – Brahadeesh
      3 hours ago















    If by 'right statement' OP means 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero. Better to state in the more general. And Rolle's Theorem not always about roots (f(a)=f(b)=0). The version I was taught was simply a formalization that between two points with equal y-value, there is a peak with zero derivative.
    – smci
    7 hours ago




    If by 'right statement' OP means 'most general', then no we don't need f(a),f(b) to equal zero. Better to state in the more general. And Rolle's Theorem not always about roots (f(a)=f(b)=0). The version I was taught was simply a formalization that between two points with equal y-value, there is a peak with zero derivative.
    – smci
    7 hours ago












    This could be an answer on its own.
    – Brahadeesh
    3 hours ago




    This could be an answer on its own.
    – Brahadeesh
    3 hours ago










    up vote
    8
    down vote













    Yes, you are right: $f(a)=f(b)$ is enough. However, it is usual to add the condition $=0$ after $f(a)=f(b)$ so that the theorem becomes: between two roots of $f$, there's a root of $f'$, which is the original theorem due Michel Rolle (who stated it for polynomials only).



    Anyway, this is a moot point, since both statements are just a particular case of the Mean Value Theorem.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















    • Thank you. It was really helpful.
      – U Know me
      yesterday










    • I'm glad I could help.
      – José Carlos Santos
      yesterday






    • 3




      OTOH, the usual way to prove the Mean Value Theorem is by applying the theorem of Rolle. Depending on how much one 'groks' working with derivatives, the step from the general ($f(a) = f(b)$ but not necessarily $=0$) version of Rolle to the Mean Value Theorem is not much bigger than from the "$f(a) = f(b)=0$" version of Rolle to the general one.
      – Ingix
      yesterday






    • 2




      +1 for the history of these theorems.
      – Paramanand Singh
      yesterday














    up vote
    8
    down vote













    Yes, you are right: $f(a)=f(b)$ is enough. However, it is usual to add the condition $=0$ after $f(a)=f(b)$ so that the theorem becomes: between two roots of $f$, there's a root of $f'$, which is the original theorem due Michel Rolle (who stated it for polynomials only).



    Anyway, this is a moot point, since both statements are just a particular case of the Mean Value Theorem.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















    • Thank you. It was really helpful.
      – U Know me
      yesterday










    • I'm glad I could help.
      – José Carlos Santos
      yesterday






    • 3




      OTOH, the usual way to prove the Mean Value Theorem is by applying the theorem of Rolle. Depending on how much one 'groks' working with derivatives, the step from the general ($f(a) = f(b)$ but not necessarily $=0$) version of Rolle to the Mean Value Theorem is not much bigger than from the "$f(a) = f(b)=0$" version of Rolle to the general one.
      – Ingix
      yesterday






    • 2




      +1 for the history of these theorems.
      – Paramanand Singh
      yesterday












    up vote
    8
    down vote










    up vote
    8
    down vote









    Yes, you are right: $f(a)=f(b)$ is enough. However, it is usual to add the condition $=0$ after $f(a)=f(b)$ so that the theorem becomes: between two roots of $f$, there's a root of $f'$, which is the original theorem due Michel Rolle (who stated it for polynomials only).



    Anyway, this is a moot point, since both statements are just a particular case of the Mean Value Theorem.






    share|cite|improve this answer













    Yes, you are right: $f(a)=f(b)$ is enough. However, it is usual to add the condition $=0$ after $f(a)=f(b)$ so that the theorem becomes: between two roots of $f$, there's a root of $f'$, which is the original theorem due Michel Rolle (who stated it for polynomials only).



    Anyway, this is a moot point, since both statements are just a particular case of the Mean Value Theorem.







    share|cite|improve this answer













    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer











    answered yesterday









    José Carlos Santos

    111k1695171




    111k1695171











    • Thank you. It was really helpful.
      – U Know me
      yesterday










    • I'm glad I could help.
      – José Carlos Santos
      yesterday






    • 3




      OTOH, the usual way to prove the Mean Value Theorem is by applying the theorem of Rolle. Depending on how much one 'groks' working with derivatives, the step from the general ($f(a) = f(b)$ but not necessarily $=0$) version of Rolle to the Mean Value Theorem is not much bigger than from the "$f(a) = f(b)=0$" version of Rolle to the general one.
      – Ingix
      yesterday






    • 2




      +1 for the history of these theorems.
      – Paramanand Singh
      yesterday
















    • Thank you. It was really helpful.
      – U Know me
      yesterday










    • I'm glad I could help.
      – José Carlos Santos
      yesterday






    • 3




      OTOH, the usual way to prove the Mean Value Theorem is by applying the theorem of Rolle. Depending on how much one 'groks' working with derivatives, the step from the general ($f(a) = f(b)$ but not necessarily $=0$) version of Rolle to the Mean Value Theorem is not much bigger than from the "$f(a) = f(b)=0$" version of Rolle to the general one.
      – Ingix
      yesterday






    • 2




      +1 for the history of these theorems.
      – Paramanand Singh
      yesterday















    Thank you. It was really helpful.
    – U Know me
    yesterday




    Thank you. It was really helpful.
    – U Know me
    yesterday












    I'm glad I could help.
    – José Carlos Santos
    yesterday




    I'm glad I could help.
    – José Carlos Santos
    yesterday




    3




    3




    OTOH, the usual way to prove the Mean Value Theorem is by applying the theorem of Rolle. Depending on how much one 'groks' working with derivatives, the step from the general ($f(a) = f(b)$ but not necessarily $=0$) version of Rolle to the Mean Value Theorem is not much bigger than from the "$f(a) = f(b)=0$" version of Rolle to the general one.
    – Ingix
    yesterday




    OTOH, the usual way to prove the Mean Value Theorem is by applying the theorem of Rolle. Depending on how much one 'groks' working with derivatives, the step from the general ($f(a) = f(b)$ but not necessarily $=0$) version of Rolle to the Mean Value Theorem is not much bigger than from the "$f(a) = f(b)=0$" version of Rolle to the general one.
    – Ingix
    yesterday




    2




    2




    +1 for the history of these theorems.
    – Paramanand Singh
    yesterday




    +1 for the history of these theorems.
    – Paramanand Singh
    yesterday










    up vote
    4
    down vote













    The two versions are clearly equivalent. Suppose just $f(a)=f(b)$. Let $g(t)=f(t)-f(a)$. Then $g(a)=g(b)=0$, so the formally weaker version shows $g'(c)=0$, hence $f'(c)=0$ for some $c$.






    share|cite|improve this answer

























      up vote
      4
      down vote













      The two versions are clearly equivalent. Suppose just $f(a)=f(b)$. Let $g(t)=f(t)-f(a)$. Then $g(a)=g(b)=0$, so the formally weaker version shows $g'(c)=0$, hence $f'(c)=0$ for some $c$.






      share|cite|improve this answer























        up vote
        4
        down vote










        up vote
        4
        down vote









        The two versions are clearly equivalent. Suppose just $f(a)=f(b)$. Let $g(t)=f(t)-f(a)$. Then $g(a)=g(b)=0$, so the formally weaker version shows $g'(c)=0$, hence $f'(c)=0$ for some $c$.






        share|cite|improve this answer













        The two versions are clearly equivalent. Suppose just $f(a)=f(b)$. Let $g(t)=f(t)-f(a)$. Then $g(a)=g(b)=0$, so the formally weaker version shows $g'(c)=0$, hence $f'(c)=0$ for some $c$.







        share|cite|improve this answer













        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer











        answered yesterday









        David C. Ullrich

        53.7k33481




        53.7k33481






















             

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